cybercoma Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 What innovations? I mean, Christianity had the Reformation.... Except for, you know, the huge Catholic population here in Canada and around the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Except for, you know, the huge Catholic population here in Canada and around the world.Catholics got the "Second Vatican Council" which reconciled the Catholic church with the modern world. This council declared, among other things, that the Catholic church did not have a monopoly on a connection to the divine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Catholics got the "Second Vatican Council" which reconciled the Catholic church with the modern world. This council declared, among other things, that the Catholic church did not have a monopoly on a connection to the divine. Interesting, but I bet the rank and file are unaware of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Catholics got the "Second Vatican Council" which reconciled the Catholic church with the modern world. This council declared, among other things, that the Catholic church did not have a monopoly on a connection to the divine. Excerge Domine was the first Catholic response to Luther. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) Its interesting to you because you are probably an atheist or at least a non religious person. Being an atheist is also a belief like as our religious belief. THere is no compulsion in the system. So you are free to believe whatever you want as long as you dont start to harm public order or you dont perform dangerous actions.It always bothers me when theists try to claim that atheism is just a belief, when it is a lack of belief. For example, you probably do not believe in leprechauns or the Loch Ness Monster, right? So is your a-leprechaunism just a belief similar to those that believe in little Irish gnomes that hang out near rainbows with their pots of gold? Of course not, it is a lack of belief in something without any tangible evidence. Edited September 12, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Of course not, it is a lack of belief in something without any tangible evidence.There are two types of atheists: those who say there is no evidence so they don't believe but are open to changing their mind if evidence appeared. And those that are convinced there is no god and we are just a random product of evolution. The latter is a religion. The former is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) There are two types of atheists: those who say there is no evidence so they don't believe but are open to changing their mind if evidence appeared. And those that are convinced there is no god and we are just a random product of evolution. The latter is a religion. The former is not. Sort of...we only demand that kind of accuracy when discussing gods. We accept a simple no on the question of whether Bigfoot, leprechauns or Santa exists; yet, we demand acknowledgement of the fact that we typically can't definitely prove a negative in the case of gods. When no evidence of gods or a super-nature exists it's really kind of silly. What's worse is that theists typically try to claim that this non-belief in gods without any evidence is somehow on par with their wild non-evidential claims. Edited September 12, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 You know what's dangerous? Kicking the ass of another region of the world for over half a century, propping up dictators like the Saudis and the Shah so that our foreign companies can exploit their oil riches and sell them tremendous amounts of weapons with the money they make from this oil while building bases on Muslim lands to stage wars against Muslims in neighbouring countries, enacting economic sanctions that's killed a million ppl, unconditionally supporting an Israel that they see as stealing their people's land and doing other nasty deeds while letting them create a nuclear monopoly, invading and/or dropping bombs on them left right and center...and expecting them to bow down to our power and kiss our feet? Where is the "Why the West is dangerous" thread"? Indonesia has the highest % of the world's Muslims of any country. Maybe there's a reason why Indonesian Muslims aren't trying to blow us up at the rate ME Muslims are? Maybe Muslims in the ME have become disillusioned with their secular leaders who have sold their people out for big paychecks from the very countries that kill their brothers and sisters, and therefore turn away from the secularism & modernity that's failed them & they turn back towards their religion & a revolutionary violent interpretation of it as the only answer to the problems they see around them. Maybe that last sentence is EXACTLY what caused the Iranian Revolution of 1979, and everything that's followed since. Maybe those that would see what I say as self-hatred and "west blaming" and "appeasement" are the ones that have supported continuing this war for the last 15 years when it's only made things worse, and they have absolutely no answer on how to solve the "war on terror" besides knowing that they refuse to acknowledge any part in its creation because of pride and some kind of tough-guy BS. Maybe all that Muslims of the ME want is to be able to choose their own destiny free of foreign intervention, but the West doesn't think it can allow that because it needs to control the extremely important oil resources there instead of leaving the ME and allowing the Russians or Chinese to fill the power vacuum, which would threaten Western economies and security. Maybe the West, the Russians, the Chinese, and other countries should sign an agreement that says every country has to leave the ME & its oil alone and remain neutral in all ME conflict so they can all get the hell out of that mess. Maybe we should be actually following the UN Charter that is supposed to guarantee the sovereign right of any country to be free from foreign intervention within its territory, save for a UNSC resolution to stop any country that goes against this promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Mayers Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 No, atheism is not as such at all really, and I doubt if capitalizing the word will change that. I'm atheist [or Atheist, ??]. Why would I not know this? I've learned of many others who assert they are 'atheist' but are widely different and retain some religious rationalizing that they don't necessarily see they hold. I could go into depth on this but it would be too digressing for this topic. Personally, I treat my atheism as an absence of belief in gods or even spiritualism, etc. But I'm also Nihilist (logically, not of a defeated depressing emotional judgment about reality). So I even question other skeptics in practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Indonesia has the highest % of the world's Muslims of any country. Maybe there's a reason why Indonesian Muslims aren't trying to blow us up at the rate ME Muslims are? Maybe Muslims in the ME have become disillusioned with their secular leaders who have sold their people out for big paychecks from the very countries that kill their brothers and sisters, and therefore turn away from the secularism & modernity that's failed them & they turn back towards their religion & a revolutionary violent interpretation of it as the only answer to the problems they see around them. Maybe that last sentence is EXACTLY what caused the Iranian Revolution of 1979, and everything that's followed since. Why did the mob of Muslims attack the Christians attending mass in Indonesia last week? Peaceful model Indonesia. None of those Christians were involved in the Invasion of Iraq...were they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) It always bothers me when theists try to claim that atheism is just a belief, when it is a lack of belief. For example, you probably do not believe in leprechauns or the Loch Ness Monster, right? So is your a-leprechaunism just a belief similar to those that believe in little Irish gnomes that hang out near rainbows with their pots of gold? Of course not, it is a lack of belief in something without any tangible evidence. Lack of belief to something which cant be perceptible by five senses is also a belief. It becomes a belief when we make certain propositions about a state of uncertainty. Edited September 12, 2016 by Altai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 *Westerners* I thought of specifying "Bad Westerners" vs. "Good Westerners". Because that's what we're doing over there "Those are the bad people, here's the good people, let's help the good people beat up the bad people". We oughta just get outta there. Ffs...then we'll be blamed for creating "a vacuum" and starting g another ISIS. Aren't we helping the "good" Muslims get away from the "bad" Muslims? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Yes and setting it back decades in Iran has very likely helped set it back centuries throughout the rest of the region as a result.hyperbole much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Its a set of rules written long before as to be compatible with yesterday, today and tomorrow. Its a system open to innovations. If anything, the rules have been more strictly enforced since the publishing and wide acceptance of Milestones. Many Muslims accepted they were not being pious enough and extremism against anything Westernized increased. What you are doing is Taqqiya. You as a Muslim know these rules are not allowed to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Lack of belief to something which cant be perceptible by five senses is also a belief. It becomes a belief when we make certain propositions about a state of uncertainty. I see. So your (I assume) lack of belief in leprechauns is just a belief? You feel it is really no different than those who believe in those mischievous little gnomes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Lack of belief to something which cant be perceptible by five senses is also a belief. It becomes a belief when we make certain propositions about a state of uncertainty. The lack of belief in God means that there is no justification for judging people for petty things like how they are dressed or what their sexual orientation is. There is no justification for misogyny, patriarchy or pedophilia. There is no justification for killing someone for apostasy, or burning them at the stake for witchcraft. Religion causes incredible strife and bloodshed. It tears apart families and communities, and creates war between countries. I would prefer a world in which people behaved morally because it came from inside themselves, not because they think some god is watching over and will 'punish' bad behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) And it doesn't matter if an individual Muslim(s) doesn't want to fight for the cause of Allah...the Quran has a verse for that, too. The Quran says: Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.https://quran.com/2/216 So shut-up...take your medicine and grab a sword. Edited September 12, 2016 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) The lack of belief in God means that there is no justification for judging people for petty things like how they are dressed or what their sexual orientation is. There is no justification for misogyny, patriarchy or pedophilia. There is no justification for killing someone for apostasy, or burning them at the stake for witchcraft. Religion causes incredible strife and bloodshed. It tears apart families and communities, and creates war between countries. I would prefer a world in which people behaved morally because it came from inside themselves, not because they think some god is watching over and will 'punish' bad behavior. Theists can be opposed to all of those things as well. Many believers would never put religion ahead of human rights and well being. I personally think it is just important to believe as many truths as few possible falsehoods as possible. If sufficient evidence for something exists, believe it, otherwise by default we don't believe. Sure leprechauns, the living Elvis Presley, Allah, Yahweh or the Flying Spaghetti Monster could exist. You typically can't prove a negative. Yet, since there is no evidence for the existence of such things, holding such beliefs is nonsensical. It is incorrect and a little juvenile of those who try to claim belief without evidence is the same thing as a lack of belief due to the absence of evidence. Edited September 12, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) Theists can be opposed to all of those things as well. Many believers would never put religion ahead of human rights and well being. I personally think it is just important to believe as many truths as few possible falsehoods as possible. If sufficient evidence for something exists, believe it, otherwise by default we don't believe. Sure leprechauns, the living Elvis Presley, Allah, Yahweh or the Flying Spaghetti Monster could exist. You typically can't prove a negative. Yet, since there is no evidence for the existence of such things, holding such beliefs is nonsensical. It is incorrect and a little juvenile of those who try to claim belief without evidence is the same thing as a lack of belief due to the absence of evidence. There was zero ability to understand advanced scientific concepts such as stellar metallicity in the Bronze Age...unlike now. Religion can't explain it away without resorting to magic. Edited September 12, 2016 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Theists can be opposed to all of those things as well. Many believers would never put religion ahead of human rights and well being. Yup, and it's even the majority of them. However, I'd be happy to take away any excuse people use to deny others their rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Yup, and it's even the majority of them. However, I'd be happy to take away any excuse people use to deny others their rights. What if one's religion requires them to fight the unbeliever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Yup, and it's even the majority of them. However, I'd be happy to take away any excuse people use to deny others their rights. I too am happy religion is in decline. Though, I would never take away a right, in order to remove "any excuse people use to deny others their rights." I would much rather have people leave because they became sufficiently logical and skeptical. What if one's religion requires them to fight the unbeliever? Christianity does yet most manage to ignore that part. Islam does but again most manage to ignore that part as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Religion isn't in decline. There are more religious people on this planet today than EVER in history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 I too am happy religion is in decline. Though, I would never take away a right, in order to remove "any excuse people use to deny others their rights." I would much rather have people leave because they became sufficiently logical and skeptical. Yeah, that is really the best way. None of my rant was meant to imply I'd "take religion away" against people's will. But if there was a move in Canada to make the government declare a certain religion the State religion (Christianity or Islam or any other), I'd fight it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Yeah, that is really the best way. None of my rant was meant to imply I'd "take religion away" against people's will. But if there was a move in Canada to make the government declare a certain religion the State religion (Christianity or Islam or any other), I'd fight it. You're avoiding: What if one's religion requires one to fight the unbeliever. Whose rights get flushed first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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