Why Islam is dangerous

[Guest]

There is no such a thing that Muslims translate it in many different way, this is what you want to believe but its not in reality.

I provided a link to varying definitions of the word Fitnah where a Muslim stated the intended meaning in 2:193 is:

4- Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah)” [al-Baqarah 2:193]

Ibn Katheer said: this means shirk (worshipping others besides Allaah).

So in reality an Islamic question and answer site run by Muslims translated the meaning of the word Fitnah, differently than you did. This translation has appeared in multiple pages when I searched for the meaning. So who is correct?

Also you disagreed with the meaning of the word Zalimun. I found this explanation:

What does Zalimun mean? Zalimun is plural. Single is Zalim. Who are the zalimun or who is a Zalim?

1. Every idolater is a Zalim (2:92, 7:148, 10:106)
2. Every disbeliever is a Zalim (2:254)
3. Whoever calls himself a god is a Zalim (21:29)
4. Whoever denies any of the verses of Quran is a Zalim (29:49)
5. Whoever invents a lie against allah is a Zalim (3:94, 6:21)
6. Whoever makes false claims is a Zalim (11:31)
7. Is your friend hostile to islam? Then you are also a Zalim (9:23, 60:9)
8. Whoever follows desires rather than Quran and Sunnah is also a Zalim (2:145)
9. Whoever punishes an innocent is a Zalim (12:79)
10. Whoever violates the laws of allah is a Zalim (2:229)
11. And lastly, whoever does not judge by the Quran and sunnah is a Zalim (5:45)

This doesn't quite align with your definition which was "the ones who behaves brutal, cruel.", unless you are claiming that non-believers or idolaters or those that violate the laws of Islam are behaving in a brutal or cruel manner.

According to my reading some do take 2:193 to mean:

Fight the disbelievers untill there is no more non-believers and Islam established as only religion. But if the disbelievers cease fighting, let there be no hostility towards them, except against the Zalimun.

However, as with Christianity I am glad that there is wiggle room for moderate people to invent ways to ignore scripture that can be brutal and out of touch with modern reality.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Guest

[Goddess]

So, when Muslims are instructed, "3:28: Believers should not take Kafirs as friends in preference to other believers. Those who do this will have none of Allah's protection and will only have themselves as guards. Allah warns you to fear him for all will return to him."................this is talking about farmers?

You can't make friends with farmers? Why not?

[Benz]

What I have heard from Muslim people studying the question is that, Kafir is someone that denies something despite that person knows it exists. I never heard about farmers though.

Altai,

I suggest you to refer to a good translation of the Quran. There most be one on web site somewhere. There are many muslims having english as primary language and not even knowing arabic. Are they all are believing the wrong version of the Quran? If so, don't you think it is scary?

Edited September 6, 2016 by Benz

[Goddess]

"6:45: So the kafirs were annihilated. All praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds"

Boy, they really hate farmers. I had no idea.

[Guest]

Only farmers who plant seeds. Dairy farmers are well liked, unless they hide their cows.

[TimG]

Seems to me every old religion requires followers to simply ignore large pieces of the teachings in order to co-exist in a multi-cultural society. Islam is no different and many long time resident followers of Islam in Canada are able to do that.

The question we need to be asking is when are followers of Islam around the world going to do that?

Turkey used to be a shining example of forward thinking Islam. Erdogan has turned it into yet another Islamo-fascist state.

Edited September 7, 2016 by TimG

[Guest]

Seems to me every old religion requires followers to simply ignore large pieces of the teachings in order to co-exist in a multi-cultural society. Islam is no different and many long time resident followers of Islam in Canada are able to do that.

The question we need to be asking is when are followers of Islam around the world going to do that?

Turkey used to be a shining example of forward thinking Islam. Erdogan has turned it into yet another Islamo-fascist state.

I agree that followers of a religion do need to cherry pick from scripture or delude themselves into accepting alternative meanings or translations in order to jive with modern humanist ethics. The reform movement is about placing human rights and values ahead of scriptures that may order acts to the contrary. So why is it that Islam has been harder to moderate or temper?

Is the article from the OP correct in assuming that Islam's more direct scripture and better use of ecstasy, ritual, etc. make for more devoted followers? Or maybe it's more political and mostly male, mostly dictatorial control in Muslim majority nations has simply led to convenient, self serving theocracies that force strict adherence to rules that benefit males?

Edited September 7, 2016 by Guest

[?Impact]

So why is it that Islam has been harder to moderate or temper?

No central church/authority?

[TimG]

So why is it that Islam has been harder to moderate or temper?

I think lack of separation between the church and state in Islam makes it very difficult to build secular institutions.

No other religion is so tightly coupled to the state.

Edited September 7, 2016 by TimG

[eyeball]

The reform movement is about placing human rights and values ahead of scriptures that may order acts to the contrary. So why is it that Islam has been harder to moderate or temper?

My guess would be 60 years or so of really ill-thought out super-power interference and exploitation in the region Islam predominates - interference and exploitation that was carried out in a really malevolent offensive way. It retarded the development of a more moderate progressive society. Probably set it back at least a couple of generations, probably more.

[Altai]

I provided a link to varying definitions of the word Fitnah where a Muslim stated the intended meaning in 2:193 is:

4- Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah)” [al-Baqarah 2:193]

Ibn Katheer said: this means shirk (worshipping others besides Allaah).

So in reality an Islamic question and answer site run by Muslims translated the meaning of the word Fitnah, differently than you did. This translation has appeared in multiple pages when I searched for the meaning. So who is correct?

Also you disagreed with the meaning of the word Zalimun. I found this explanation:

This doesn't quite align with your definition which was "the ones who behaves brutal, cruel.", unless you are claiming that non-believers or idolaters or those that violate the laws of Islam are behaving in a brutal or cruel manner.

According to my reading some do take 2:193 to mean:

Fight the disbelievers untill there is no more non-believers and Islam established as only religion. But if the disbelievers cease fighting, let there be no hostility towards them, except against the Zalimun.

However, as with Christianity I am glad that there is wiggle room for moderate people to invent ways to ignore scripture that can be brutal and out of touch with modern reality.

Nope you got it wrong.

2:193 means to fight against the ones who attacks you because of your life style and to fight them until the system belongs to Islam, because you are Muslims and Islamic system forbids the oppression to others. If they give up to fight against you anymore, then you would only be enemies against the zalimun.

Does not mean you "have to be enemies" with Zalimun. You only would be enemies against Zalimun because they may attack you anytime just because of your life style.

If you translate it as according to your interests (which you call as cherry picking) it will contradict with the Quran complately.

2:189: fight against the ones who fights against you but do not act extreme, Allah does not like extremists

2:190: kill them whereever you find them and kick them out of your homeland as the same way they did to you. Because fitnah is much worse than killing a human. Kill them if they fight you, this is the punishment of kaffirs.

2:191: if they give up, then remember that Allah is very forgiving.

2:192: Fight them until there is no fithah anymore and system belongs to Islam, because Islam forbids fitnah. If they give up to fight against you, enemity only would be against Zalimun anymore.

This is the true interpretation. If you translate as you said, it will contradict with all other verses.

I want to reply with much more examples but I dont have this much of time for a forum discussion. Your claims always contradicts with one another.

[Altai]

So, when Muslims are instructed, "3:28: Believers should not take Kafirs as friends in preference to other believers. Those who do this will have none of Allah's protection and will only have themselves as guards. Allah warns you to fear him for all will return to him."................this is talking about farmers?

You can't make friends with farmers? Why not?

Wrong translation again, there is no word in the verse which meets the word "friend" in English. The word which is wrongly translated is Arabic "evliyae" and closest meaning for it in English is "leader" or "someone trustworthy with no doubt" or "pioneer".

The Arabic equivalent of the word "friend" is "sadiq".

Edited September 7, 2016 by Altai

[Altai]

What I have heard from Muslim people studying the question is that, Kafir is someone that denies something despite that person knows it exists. I never heard about farmers though.

Altai,

I suggest you to refer to a good translation of the Quran. There most be one on web site somewhere. There are many muslims having english as primary language and not even knowing arabic. Are they all are believing the wrong version of the Quran? If so, don't you think it is scary?

You can follow the translation of Turkish Diyanet but they also make mistakes. You have to research yourself when you see something weird. Because the translators always add their personal interpretation like as its the original meaning, despite its not. Yesss this is really so scary that they are misleading people. Quran translates itself. When you translate it wrongly, it will contradict with another verse somewhere in the same surah or in another surah.

[DogOnPorch]

Zalimun is plural for Zalim = a pagan or someone who breaks Islamic Law. Even a Muslim can be a Zalim and punished for it.

The Quran says 'allies' not 'friends' re: 3:28

The rest of your explanations are equally dubious.

The thing about Islam that makes it more dangerous than most cults is that is that it was created/invented to be against another religion (Judaism) rather than for anything in particular. Islam's reason for existing is to eliminate all other forms of worship...by force if need be.

Edited September 7, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[Altai]

Zalimun is plural for Zalim = a pagan or someone who breaks Islamic Law. Even a Muslim can be a Zalim and punished for it.

The Quran says 'allies' not 'friends' re: 3:28

The rest of your explanations are equally dubious.

The thing about Islam that makes it more dangerous than most cults is that is that it was created/invented to be against another religion (Judaism) rather than for anything in particular. Islam's reason for existing is to eliminate all other forms of worship...by force if need be.

Islam forbids opression. There are many verses about it. Some of them are in pre posts and below another one.

From Surah 88, Verses 20,21 meants, Give them advices, remind them, Your duty (Muhammad) is only to give them advice and is to warn them, is to remind them. You are not a bully over them, you dont have a power over them, you cant force them.

So I proved that your claim is false.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam forbids oppression of Muslims.

[Altai]

Islam forbids oppression of Muslims.

LoL, read the pre-post again. I gave the number of verses. Forbids to oppression of anyone.

[DogOnPorch]

No...just Muslims.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

https://quran.com/9:29

The World is divided into two in Islam: Dar-al-Harb...land of war...and Dar-al-Islam...land of peace.

Dar-al-Harb is ANYWHERE where Islam is not 100%.

You may now explain this away...

[dialamah]

LoL, read the pre-post again. I gave the number of verses. Forbids to oppression of anyone.

It won't matter what you say to him, Altai, he is convinced that his version of Islam is the right one. As far as he is concerned, Islam is a violent, oppressive ideology and he only accepts proof which supports his point of view, and rejects anything else.

[DogOnPorch]

It won't matter what you say to him, Altai, he is convinced that his version of Islam is the right one. As far as he is concerned, Islam is a violent, oppressive ideology and he only accepts proof which supports his point of view, and rejects anything else.

Which version of Islam is correct? The one as printed in the Quran or the one you make-up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam

Edited September 7, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[dialamah]

Which version of Islam is correct? The one as printed in the Quran or the one you make-up?

You choose the interpretation of Islam that supports violence, oppression and terrorism and keep insisting this is the only correct interpretation. Given alternate interpretations of Islam that support peace and tolerance, you say that cannot possibly be correct. You are certainly free to believe as you will, but I don't think that gives you any grounds to tell people who believe differently that they are wrong. Every single religion in the world has sects, because they all interpret their holy books said differently from one another. Each believes they've got the 'truth' of it, even if their interpretation differs entirely from another who is following the exact same book. If anything is 'made-up', it's your conviction that you have the 'truth' and anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

[DogOnPorch]

You choose the interpretation of Islam that supports violence, oppression and terrorism and keep insisting this is the only correct interpretation. Given alternate interpretations of Islam that support peace and tolerance, you say that cannot possibly be correct. You are certainly free to believe as you will, but I don't think that gives you any grounds to tell people who believe differently that they are wrong. Every single religion in the world has sects, because they all interpret their holy books said differently from one another. Each believes they've got the 'truth' of it, even if their interpretation differs entirely from another who is following the exact same book. If anything is 'made-up', it's your conviction that you have the 'truth' and anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

No...just reading the Quran. No choice involved. You're free to show me what Sura 9 Verse 29 really means.

[dialamah]

No...just reading the Quran. No choice involved. You're free to show me what Sura 9 Verse 29 really means.

Are you reading it in Arabic?

[DogOnPorch]

Are you reading it in Arabic?

So in order to understand Islam properly, it must be read in Medieval Arabic?

[dialamah]

So in order to understand Islam properly, it must be read in Medieval Arabic?

Do you read it in Arabic?