John Charlton Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 Nor was it his 'fault' that he became leader of the Liberal party. He was born into it, and if daddy Pierre hadn't preceded him Justin wouldn't be anything more than a drama teacher. You all need to read the memoir's of Justins father then re-wight your comments. he will learn and lead, it is in his blood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Charlton Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 I seem to recall discussions along similar lines when Bush Jr rose to power. Given the disaster that followed maybe the conservative wariness towards Trudeau Jn is appropriate. OTOH it could just be a delayed reaction. We all learn the most on the job. We and I included learned little from school, but learned from day one till the end in the real world. Give him a chance at least as the leader of the opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 You people keep making these wild assed claims about the Israelis forcing the Palestinians out, regardless of the fact their numbers continue to grow and the fact there are no settlements in Gaza. Not exactly hooked on phonix are you? Nobody is has claimed that their numbers are shrinking. What is being claimed is that palestinians are getting pushed into a smaller and smaller area. But its nice to see you admit that if you were a palestinian you would try to kill Israelis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Charlton Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 Hopefully when JT gets to power he will have recalled enough from "daddy Pierre's" teachings that you shouldn't conceal files from parliament and get yourself found in contempt, or heaven forbid, as in Bush's case, guilty of war crimes. A man or women of understanding and not casting a net over the family of Justin V/S George Bush as the same. Thank you for now spewing out CNN. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 Huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 What corruption? Do we need to list the endless scandals Harper has on his plate? Actually JT has a lot more experience in government than Harper did when he came to power. Harper worked for daddy. Sure JT was born with the "silver spoon" but that's not his fault. But JT has shown himself to be shallow, callow, and delighted to embrace whatever new fads come along. As for corruption, the nearest thing I can recall is Tony the Nose misapropriating $50k of G20 money for his riding. And no, I don't count individual Senators doing what they've been doing for a century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 I seem to recall discussions along similar lines when Bush Jr rose to power. Given the disaster that followed maybe the conservative wariness towards Trudeau Jn is appropriate. OTOH it could just be a delayed reaction. Obama would be a better comparison. Another ten years of seasoning in the senate might have taught him a few things and made his presidency more successfull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 Hopefully when JT gets to power he will have recalled enough from "daddy Pierre's" teachings that you shouldn't conceal files from parliament and get yourself found in contempt, or heaven forbid, as in Bush's case, guilty of war crimes. Daddy Pierre tripled taxes, increased spending by 400% and created and left us with an enormous debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 You all need to read the memoir's of Justins father then re-wight your comments. he will learn and lead, it is in his blood. Trudeau senior and junior are those rare things in Canadian politics; men with charisma. As such, yes, they can persuade, and yes they can lead. But does that suggest they know where to lead? Well, no. Some of the world's most incompetent leaders had great charisma. Pierre was an arrogant man who made many mistakes and had many failings. By the time he left he was despised by much of the country. The westerns hated him. Miners in Ontario pelted his train with rocks, He dismissed them and all others who disagreed with him as having no value. His most telling comment, that MPs were nobody's a hundred feet off the hill. Trudeau junior appears to be displaying some of the same characteristics in dismissing those who oppose him, and embracing ideas without regard to their sense or cost. Complexity annoys him. He likes simple answers, preferably ones which will increase his popularity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 But JT has shown himself to be shallow, callow, and delighted to embrace whatever new fads come along. As for corruption, the nearest thing I can recall is Tony the Nose misapropriating $50k of G20 money for his riding. And no, I don't count individual Senators doing what they've been doing for a century. Well then your recollection is somewhat shallow regarding scandals. Let me name just a few for your edification: -the shoe store project -Julie Couillard scandal -In and Out scandal -Robocalls -CFIA scandal -The ETS scandal, Senate expenses, and don't forget the ever famous contempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 You all need to read the memoir's of Justins father then re-wight your comments. he will learn and lead, it is in his blood. Good judgement isn't a DNA trait, and even if it was his father was a terrible economist, a caustic and divisive personality and an antagonistic diplomat. Oh, but he gave us a Constitution...yay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) But JT has shown himself to be shallow, callow, and delighted to embrace whatever new fads come along. As for corruption, the nearest thing I can recall is Tony the Nose misapropriating $50k of G20 money for his riding. And no, I don't count individual Senators doing what they've been doing for a century. Well then your recollection is somewhat shallow regarding scandals. Let me name just a few for your edification: -the shoe store project -Julie Couillard scandal -In and Out scandal -Robocalls -CFIA scandal -The ETS scandal, Senate expenses, and don't forget the ever famous contempt. None of that is corruption other than the senate expenses. And I have no doubt the senate has been getting away with these sorts of claims for the past hundred years or so. Corruption involves taking public money for private purposes, or being paid money in order to do something that isn't in the interests of Canada ,or to buy something vastly overpriced or lacking quality, etc. That is corruption. Edited August 4, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 None of that is corruption other than the senate expenses. And I have no doubt the senate has been getting away with these sorts of claims for the past hundred years or so. Corruption involves taking public money for private purposes, or being paid money in order to do something that isn't in the interests of Canada ,or to buy something vastly overpriced or lacking quality, etc. That is corruption. You must be quite a fan of Harper to dismiss these and other things as not being corruption. I think a lot of people would have a very different opiunion. You have a rather narrow view of corruption seemingly saying it must involve money. Cover ups, lies, withholding public information all amount to corruption in my book. Although I hasten to agree that most of my small number of bullets mentioned do involve significant sumes of public money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 He's no more of a fan of Harper than I am (not much of one), but he's right, those things aren't corruption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 He's no more of a fan of Harper than I am (not much of one), but he's right, those things aren't corruption Maybe not to you, but the "In Out" scandal is classic corruption. I suspect the Robocalls may end up being found as that as well. And the Duffy thing, that's corruption of a very likely criminal level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Corruption involves taking public money for private purposes, or being paid money in order to do something that isn't in the interests of Canada ,or to buy something vastly overpriced or lacking quality, etc. That is corruption. The definition for corruption is far, far broader than that. The easiest way to define political corruption would be to call it the abuse of public power for personal gain, whatever that gain might be. Whether it's helping a friend, family or yourself doesn't really matter. The benefits don't have to be tangible and there are tons of examples I could give you off the top of my head, and I'm sure you could think of just as many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 You must be quite a fan of Harper to dismiss these and other things as not being corruption. No, I'm a fan of the English language, and using the proper words to describe actions. How is Julie Coulliard an example of corruption? She was a minister's girlfriend until it was found out he accidentally left some stuff at her place, then her history came out and they broke up. And you use THIS as an example of Harper's corruption!? Really!? Robocalls has already been dismissed as a local thing of no great importance, vastly exaggerated by the harper haters, and involved no money. The food inspection thing was simply the government trying to save money. Calling it corruption is ludicrous unless you can demonstrate the companies involved paid the government under the table in order to get inspections lowered. You seem to believe any time a government, or at least, a Conservative government, does anything which you don't like, or screws up in some way that makes it corruption. Well, it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 The definition for corruption is far, far broader than that. The easiest way to define political corruption would be to call it the abuse of public power for personal gain, whatever that gain might be. Whether it's helping a friend, family or yourself doesn't really matter. The benefits don't have to be tangible and there are tons of examples I could give you off the top of my head, and I'm sure you could think of just as many. So give me some and we can discuss them. My definition of corruption involves intentional actions which cost the taxpayers a reasonably large sum of money in order to benefit the individual who makes or orders the action. For example, the Ontario Liberals cost the taxpayers over a billion dollars in order to improve their electoral chances in a couple of ridings. I personally think the Ontario liberal party should be required to pay back all of that money, with interest. Now Tony Clement directing $50,000 into riding improvements are a gray area. It benefited him, but it also benefited the people in his riding. I don't approve of it but I don't think I'd call it corruption. A minster directing a contract to a firm in his riding would also not really be corruption in my eyes provided the firm can do the job properly and no more expensively than any other firm, and he isn't being paid or rewarded for his action. This kind of patronage action has been pretty endemic through Canada's history, particularly under the Liberals, where the companies involved often couldn't do the work properly and charged much more. The Gatinea skyline across the river from Ottawa, for example, is full of enormously overpriced buildings Trudeau's friend and campaign donater Robert Campeau put up for him. The federal liberals awarding fake contracts for studies and advertising which weren't needed or didn't take place, vastly overpaying for them, and getting kickbacks was most definitely corruption, on the other hand. Though I notice none of the Liberal supporters here think that was anything important and are quite certain no one of any importance knew about it... The closest thing I can think of in terms of the current government is their stupid, pointless and ongoing advertising for "Canada's economic action plan". I think the entire cost ought to be paid out of their party's budget. I'm kind of cynical about that, though, since all governments misuse advertising to brag about themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Maybe not to you, but the "In Out" scandal is classic corruption. The in-out scandal was not classic corruption. It was an example of lawyers having different opinions on things. At least one judge sided with the tories in the ensuing litigaton. Jean Chretien ordering the head of the Business Development Bank to give a loan to a criminal friend of his so that criminal could pay Chretien off for his golf course was classic corruption in which Chretien gave public money to his friend Yvon Duhaime, a man who was buying the golf course Chretien owned. None of that money was ever paid back, and Chretien fired the head of the BDC when he tried to collect it, then tried to have the RCMP put him in prison. Although, of course, none of the Liberal party supporters consider this to have been even a little wrong. Standards seem to change when you're a diehard party supporter, or when your ideology causes you to hate the prime minister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Pissing away millions of tax dollars on lawyers feel and then waiting for the headlines to move onto other things before admitting you were wrong all along and paying the fines is classic Harper corruption. The in-out scandal was not classic corruption. It was an example of lawyers having different opinions on things. At least one judge sided with the tories in the ensuing litigaton. Jean Chretien ordering the head of the Business Development Bank to give a loan to a criminal friend of his so that criminal could pay Chretien off for his golf course was classic corruption in which Chretien gave public money to his friend Yvon Duhaime, a man who was buying the golf course Chretien owned. None of that money was ever paid back, and Chretien fired the head of the BDC when he tried to collect it, then tried to have the RCMP put him in prison. Although, of course, none of the Liberal party supporters consider this to have been even a little wrong. Standards seem to change when you're a diehard party supporter, or when your ideology causes you to hate the prime minister. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 No, I'm a fan of the English language, and using the proper words to describe actions. How is Julie Coulliard an example of corruption? She was a minister's girlfriend until it was found out he accidentally left some stuff at her place, then her history came out and they broke up. And you use THIS as an example of Harper's corruption!? Really!? Robocalls has already been dismissed as a local thing of no great importance, vastly exaggerated by the harper haters, and involved no money. The food inspection thing was simply the government trying to save money. Calling it corruption is ludicrous unless you can demonstrate the companies involved paid the government under the table in order to get inspections lowered. You seem to believe any time a government, or at least, a Conservative government, does anything which you don't like, or screws up in some way that makes it corruption. Well, it doesn't You're slightly skewed sugar coated description of events does not make these things not corruption. For instance in theCouillard case it wasn't the bungling that made it corrupt, it was the attempt to cover things up that makes it dirty. Once again you seem to have view that corruption has to involve money. Not true. Influence peddling equally fills the bill. Using power to maintain power if you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 So give me some and we can discuss them. Watergate is a classic example. The Nixon administration/re-election campaign was looking for an edge against the Democrats and subverted the legal and political system to gain it. Favouritism, nepotism or clientelism (Mike Duffy?) are other forms of corruption where there's little/no tangible economic gains, but significant political and or future benefits. Extortion/blackmail are easy examples, where threats and demands can be made with no money changing hands (ie - you pass/vote down this bill otherwise...) Do I need to go on? It's all corruption. The problem is that it's often difficult to prove, or it's not technically illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Watergate is a very good example of why it ain't all about the dough. Obviously the government of the day has legal access to the taxpayer bag of money. What they don't have access to is a guarantee of re-election. I suspect there are far more examples of corruption regarding "pass this bill or else" than there are to do with fingers in the cookie jar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 JT admitted to going to an Al Qaida-linked Mosque in Montreal. Slow Clap JT, Slow Clap. http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/05/trudeau-lambasted-for-visiting-mosque-linked-to-al-qaida-recruitment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) JT admitted to going to an Al Qaida-linked Mosque in Montreal. Slow Clap JT, Slow Clap. http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/05/trudeau-lambasted-for-visiting-mosque-linked-to-al-qaida-recruitment And I would love to know what he promised them for their support. A little sharia law thrown in like they tried in ONT. And I understand the man that tried to push that thru in ONT is now on the trudeau team. Edited August 6, 2014 by PIK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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