Malaysian Airliner Reportedly Shot Down in east Ukraine

[Derek 2.0]

And what would Ukraine stand to gain from shooting down Putin's aircraft other than get itself invaded?

I would tend to agree that the Ukrainian Government wouldn’t have much to gain, but with that said, there is no guarantee that a Putin-less Russia would be capable of invading the Ukraine.

[WestCoastRunner]

My question is, 'what does the u.s. do next'? Could this have been prevented by the U.S. taking a stronger position against Putin.

[Boges]

Thats predicated on the Ukrainians attempting to kill Putin.

You don't think the rebels trying to enforce a no fly zone is a more likely explanation?

Other airlines had been avoiding The Ukraine for some time now.

[Shady]

That doesn't prove rebels shot down this aircraft.

It was either rebels or Russian troops themselves, because apparently it was shot down with a Russian Buk launcher. The same kind of weapon used to down several Ukranian transport planes over the last several weeks.

[Derek 2.0]

There are plenty of observations done on the available evidence by security analysts from the U.S., Germany, the U.K. etc to come to the most plausible agreement that this plane was taken down by rebels supplied with missiles from the Russians.

What data is that? The Russians, Ukrainians and apparently the rebels all operate the same SAM system……….Who is to say a faction Crimean Tatars weren’t attempting to kill Putin? Or Chechen rebels?

[Boges]

It was either rebels or Russian troops themselves, because apparently it was shot down with a Russian Buk launcher. The same kind of weapon used to down several Ukranian transport planes over the last several weeks.

Ukraine has that weapons system too, just not the intent.

[Derek 2.0]

My question is, 'what does the u.s. do next'?

Under Obama, ineffective sanctions at best/worst (depending what side of the fence you're on)

[WestCoastRunner]

Ukraine has that weapons system too, just not the intent.

They didn't have these weapons in that region is my understanding.

[Derek 2.0]

You don't think the rebels trying to enforce a no fly zone is a more likely explanation?

Perhaps, but why would they shoot down an airliner?

Other airlines had been avoiding The Ukraine for some time now.

A good idea......

[WestCoastRunner]

Under Obama, ineffective sanctions at best/worst (depending what side of the fence you're on)

More sanctions need to be implemented and sanctions that make a difference.

[Derek 2.0]

It was either rebels or Russian troops themselves, because apparently it was shot down with a Russian Buk launcher. The same kind of weapon used to down several Ukranian transport planes over the last several weeks.

The Ukrainian army uses the exact same system, a vestige of the Soviet Union.

[Derek 2.0]

They didn't have these weapons in that region is my understanding.

The Ukrainians likely don’t know…….they have been loosing military equipment without a trace, hand over fist since the end of the Cold War……this only escalated when the tensions started in the Ukraine last year.

[Derek 2.0]

More sanctions need to be implemented and sanctions that make a difference.

Europe, dependant upon Russian energy, won’t play ball……nor would China…….How much trade does Russia have with the United States?

[ASIP]

That is no way certain……..The Ukrainian military also operated the same system…..The rebels could have obtained them from them, stolen them from Ukrainian arsenal or liberated them from one of the various army units that surrendered or switched sides..........

Or Martians could have transfered them to so called rebels...

Anti-aircraft missiles like this are not toys. Ukrainian army is not that bad. Your assertion is 100% wrong.

[ASIP]

And yet the rebels showed pictures of surface to air BUK missiles taken from a military base earlier in the conflict.

ThIs is not true. Rebels took no Buk missiles from any military base. They absolutely could not do that.

[WestCoastRunner]

Europe, dependant upon Russian energy, won’t play ball……nor would China…….How much trade does Russia have with the United States?

Well, of course these are all issues to consider. I don't have an answer. But obviously, further sanctions deserve more analysis.

[Derek 2.0]

Well, of course these are all issues to consider. I don't have an answer. But obviously, further sanctions deserve more analysis.

I don’t doubt the Americans will go that route, but it’s doubtful that they would be effective.

[ASIP]

The most likely scenario is a separatist group shot down the plane thinking it is a Ukrainian military plane.

This is impossible scenario.

Have you ever seen a control station inside the Buk launcher vehicle? I bet you have not. A launch (and a hit) can be conducted only by a trained crew. Especially when not having support from the two big radars normally used for firing. They must be professionals.

This crew of three officers arrived from Russia together with the vehicle and missiles. Ukrainians intercepted a telephone call of the trucker who delivered the vehicle across the Ukrainian border. The trucker was asking about further instructions. When asked he confirmed that the crew is near the vehicle.

Of course, they shot down the plane not recognizing it was civilian. It could be due to limited capabilities of the systems in the launcher vehicle.

[WestCoastRunner]

This is impossible scenario.

Have you ever seen a control station inside the Buk launcher vehicle? I bet you have not. A launch (and a hit) can be conducted only by a trained crew. Especially when not having support from the two big radars normally used for firing. They must be professionals.

This crew of three officers arrived from Russia together with the vehicle and missiles. Ukrainians intercepted a telephone call of the trucker who delivered the vehicle across the Ukrainian border. The trucker was asking about further instructions. When asked he confirmed that the crew is near the vehicle.

Of course, they shot down the plane not recognizing it was civilian. It could be due to limited capabilities of the systems in the launcher vehicle.

And you of course have evidence.

[The_Squid]

ThIs is not true. Rebels took no Buk missiles from any military base. They absolutely could not do that.

Of course they could.... And they did.

He added: ‘These separatists boasted on Twitter about capturing a BUK SA11 missile launcher on June 29, and several hours before the downing of the plane, locals in Torez reported seeing BUK missile launchers and separatist flags around the city.

'Later, there was lots of video posted of the plane falling down and rebels saying that “it was not pointless moving it [the BUK] there”.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html#ixzz37slOIy2E

[The_Squid]

I don’t doubt the Americans will go that route, but it’s doubtful that they would be effective.

What should Obama do?

[Derek 2.0]

What should Obama do?

Without European support…….nothing, why waste the political capital coming up on the mid-terms?

[The_Squid]

Without European support.nothing, why waste the political capital coming up on the mid-terms?

So you blame him for ineffective sanctions but don't think he should do anything because of the Lack of European support.

And if he wasn't doing anything at all, you'd probably be one of the people blaming him for not doing anything at all!

I'm surprised you don't blame Obama for the plane being blown up! lol

Edited July 19, 2014 by The_Squid

[WestCoastRunner]

So you blame him for ineffective sanctions but don't think he should do anything because of the Lack of European support.

And if he wasn't doing anything at all, you'd probably be one of the people blaming him for not doing anything at all!

I'm surprised you don't blame Obama for the plane being blown up! lol

Yes, I would like to hear solutions from Derek.

[Derek 2.0]

So you blame him for ineffective sanctions but don't think he should do anything because of the Lack of European support.

Certainly, if Russia’s trading partners don’t partake, why would you waste your time?