Argus Posted July 5, 2014 Report Posted July 5, 2014 monty it would help people understand the context of your posts if you quoted the post you are replying to. . I doubt that. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 5, 2014 Report Posted July 5, 2014 Shady, if you agree with me then I take back my comment of you having 'other motives'. :lol: A classic! Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted July 5, 2014 Author Report Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) And there are huge numbers of Europeans who speak English, throughout all these countries. Probably none are religious fanatics who want to blow people up either. "Europeans who speak English" can apply to immigrate to Canada too.Argus think about this: The people fleeing to Canada from violence in their home countries ARE NOT THE ONES PERPETRATINGTHE VIOLENCE. They are the VICTIMS of violence looking for a safer place to raise their families. Irish fled England's violence. Italians fled Italy's Mussolini/fascism violence. Jews fled anti-semitic violence in many countries, esp Germany's Hitler/fascism. Ugandans fled Idi Amin's violent regime. Iraqis fled Saddam Hussein's violent regime. You cannot blame, accuse or discriminate against refugees or immigrants for the violence perpetrated against them! That's illogical and just plain stupid. They are not the ones causing violence. They are running from violence to save their families. <sarcasm> Now those nasty Scots, however, always fomenting rebellion against the Crown! I'm not sure we want them here, and I think we should deport all the ones who ever came here! They are often narrow-minded, sometimes racist, remain stuck in their own culture and refuse to adopt or even respect Canadian values! And that godawful 'music'! I say strip their citizenship and send them home! We'd be a lot more united without them. </sarcasm> You see Argus, once you espouse ethnic generalizations you risk having it turned on yourself. Edited July 5, 2014 by jacee Quote
Argus Posted July 5, 2014 Report Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) "Europeans who speak English" can apply t o immigrate to Canada too. Argus think about this: The people fleeing to Canada from violence in their home countries ARE NOT THE ONES PERPETRATINGTHE VIOLENCE. They are the VICTIMS of violence looking for a safer place to raise their families. We were speaking of immigrants, not refugees. However, there's no assurance refugees aren't also bad for Canada. The Khadrs were refugees, after all. Let me tell you a true story of Canada's history. In the 1960s we imported a pile of TFWs. Only we called them domestic workers. Jamaica was close, and they spoke English. We brought in tons of nannies and housekeepers from Jamaica. But wait, what did they do with their kids? They left them home with grandma (Jamaica then and still does now have far more births outside of wedlock or relationships than within). Then some bright, liberal person decided to let all those domestic workers become Canadians. Nice, eh? I'm sure you would agree. First thing they did was bring in all their kids. Again, you'd say, of course. No problem. Their estranged kids. Kids who were yanked away from grandparents they loved to live in this cold gray place away from them and away from friends and everything they knew. Unhappy, angry young people who of course, sought out each other's company. You must be aware Canada really had no culture of street gangs in the sixties. That was a US thing. The Jamaican boys who came here in the late sixties and early seventies and hung around formed the first real, violent street gangs, which have only grown more violent since. The Haitians who came in under the same program, more in Quebec than elsewhere, produced the same series of events. No one could suggest this has been good for Canada. Somalians are another group rather notorious for their involvement in violent crime and drugs. Predictably, they came from a vicious, violent (and misogynist) culture. They arrived as refugees and, shockingly, did not simply morphe overnight into bright, earnest young Canadians. Nope. They hung around together and formed gangs, and given the nature of their culture, those gangs were and are ahm, acquisitve, and violent. The lesson is Canada's naive kind heartedness towards foreigners is not always rewarded. By the way, why do you keep assuming I'm Scottish? Edited July 5, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted July 5, 2014 Author Report Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) You must be aware Canada really had no culture of street gangs in the sixties. Horseapples. I recall WHITE bike gangs who sometimes held whole towns hostage and raped women in the streets. By the way, why do you keep assuming I'm Scottish?"Argus" Edited July 5, 2014 by jacee Quote
Shady Posted July 5, 2014 Report Posted July 5, 2014 Horseapples. They were WHITE bike gangs who sometimes held whole towns hostage and raped women in the streets. Really? When did this happen? Which towns? Quote
Argus Posted July 5, 2014 Report Posted July 5, 2014 Horseapples. I recall WHITE bike gangs who sometimes held whole towns hostage and raped women in the streets. "Argus" Okay, we're not talking about Hollywood movies... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Bob Macadoo Posted July 6, 2014 Report Posted July 6, 2014 Okay, we're not talking about Hollywood movies... Actually Canada east of Montreal has the drug and solicitation trade run by Satan's Choice, Hell's Angels, etc. Set up nice and dug in like....your neighbour would be a brother and you wouldn't know. Nice looking anglosaxons not like those scary Jamaicans. Quote
jacee Posted July 6, 2014 Author Report Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) Really? When did this happen? Which towns?Early 1960'sSauble Beach Wasaga Beach I wasn't allowed to go to the beach those long weekends, when Hell's Angels arrived. Cops were way outnumbered, mayhem in the streets. Hell's Angels took over most of the independent gangs since then. They aren't street gangs anymore, but suit-wearing wealthy businessmen ... criminals. . Edited July 6, 2014 by jacee Quote
Argus Posted July 6, 2014 Report Posted July 6, 2014 Actually Canada east of Montreal has the drug and solicitation trade run by Satan's Choice, Hell's Angels, etc. Set up nice and dug in like....your neighbour would be a brother and you wouldn't know. Nice looking anglosaxons not like those scary Jamaicans. Biker gangs are scum. There's no doubt about it. But they don't tend to knock over corner stores, or mug people on the street. They don't swagger around beating people up, cutting their throats or shooting them because they need to prove how tough they are. I used to live across the street from the Heatherington Road public housing project, home of the Ledbury Crips. Lots of crime in that area, even with a police substation put in place across the street. Stabbings, shootings, break-ins, car thefts and lots of fights. My cousin lived up the street once from a Hells Angels clubhouse. He said it was the safest street in the city. Nobody dared cause trouble there, and the bikers wanted no trouble around their club house so acted like the Knights of Columbus. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Bob Macadoo Posted July 6, 2014 Report Posted July 6, 2014 Biker gangs are scum. There's no doubt about it. But they don't tend to knock over corner stores, or mug people on the street. They don't swagger around beating people up, cutting their throats or shooting them because they need to prove how tough they are.I used to live across the street from the Heatherington Road public housing project, home of the Ledbury Crips. Lots of crime in that area, even with a police substation put in place across the street. Stabbings, shootings, break-ins, car thefts and lots of fights. My cousin lived up the street once from a Hells Angels clubhouse. He said it was the safest street in the city. Nobody dared cause trouble there, and the bikers wanted no trouble around their club house so acted like the Knights of Columbus. Glad you appreciate tyrrany......why was Saddam and his guard toppled again, since he provided the same assurances....ungrateful public. Quote
Argus Posted July 6, 2014 Report Posted July 6, 2014 Glad you appreciate tyrrany......why was Saddam and his guard toppled again, since he provided the same assurances....ungrateful public. I would have thought most people would understand that calling them 'scum' would indicate I didn't have all that much approval for them, but evidently not. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted July 6, 2014 Author Report Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) Biker gangs are scum. There's no doubt about it. But they don't tend to knock over corner stores, or mug people on the street. They don't swagger around beating people up, cutting their throats or shooting them because they need to prove how tough they are.They did in the '60's & '70's.They've matured into serious criminals now. I used to live across the street from the Heatherington Road public housing project, home of the Ledbury Crips. Lots of crime in that area, even with a police substation put in place across the street. Stabbings, shootings, break-ins, car thefts and lots of fights. My cousin lived up the street once from a Hells Angels clubhouse. He said it was the safest street in the city. Nobody dared cause trouble there, and the bikers wanted no trouble around their club house so acted like the Knights of Columbus.They're major criminals whose crimes include trafficking drugs & women and children, for sex and 'snuff porn'.As long as they're the right colour, that's all that matters to you I guess. Well argus you've destroyed another thread with your obsessive vendetta against non-white Canadians and immigrants. How disgusting that this Canada Day thread ends this way. /ignoring argus now Edited July 6, 2014 by jacee Quote
Argus Posted July 7, 2014 Report Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) They did in the '60's & '70's. If you say so. I have no memory of that. They're major criminals whose crimes include trafficking drugs & women and children, for sex and 'snuff porn'. Why must you exagerate everything? As long as they're the right colour, that's all that matters to you I guess. No, I think what upsets you is that I treat all people the same, and refuse to make excuses for them just because they have more skin pigmentation. I have high expectations for behaviour, and if people fail in great numbers then it doesn't matter to me what colour they are. Others, on the other hand, feel non-whites are so inferior they cannot be held to the same standards as white people, and also fele, in a paternalistic fashion, that they have to step in to defend them. That kind of bigotry is kind of silly, even pathetic, but it seems quite fashionable among certain liberal types. Well argus you've destroyed another thread with your obsessive vendetta against non-white Canadians and immigrants. If you ever checked your facts before spewing your ignorance, you'd see that I merely challenged the statement that multiculturalism was what unites us all. It was the raging liberal fanatics like you who kept pulling the thread in that direction in your frantic efforts at defending all those 'inferior' people you think are so quaint. Edited July 7, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted July 7, 2014 Report Posted July 7, 2014 Are you suggesting my 'values' in being wary of religious violence coming to Canada are unique? Not at all. Again, the statement to which you're replying here was that Muslims have a history of bringing their religious violence to Western countries. As this is undoubted fact, where does the sugjectivity and values come into play? In comes (in part) in when your argument prioritizes types of violence that you, Argus, care about. We have examples of you not caring about murder rates (which you attribute to gangs) nor biker gangs in Canada. The costs/benefits of immigration can't be weighed without values, so please don't feel that I'm denigrating the idea of HAVING values. Just that you can't convince me with an argument that relies on your perspective, any more than I can convince you with an argument that biker gangs are the worse things ever. I think that maybe the order should go: 1 ) Moral outrage, excitation, emotional responses 2 ) Transitional Step wherein the energy from 1 ) is turned into a plan 3 ) An intelligent plan is put together with the publics in mind 4 ) Collective Action Have I ONLY ever mentioned Muslim countries? You and I have discussed Muslim countries, but if I was to put together a list of the top countries where we ought not be taking people from Jamaica, Somalia and Haiti would be at the top. Ok, point taken. So if you're listing countries, perhaps you can list also parts of the USA, South America, Eastern Europe and a few Muslim countries can be left off too. Multi-culturalism encourages ethnic slums. We get along together by not being together, especially if we can't talk together. We had ethnic slums before multi-culturalism was a concept, so I think you're wrong. Going back to a non-approach to multi-culturalism And you know what I did before I bought that car? I did my research. I checked what kind of reliability it had, what its safety record was. I didn't just buy any old car at random. I didn't even look at Jeeps because of their poor history of reliability, for example. Did you really ? It doesn't matter but I agree that research would help things if it can be done dispassionately, with an academic approach. I wouldn't want somebody with only your values to conduct any such research, or to publicize the results or to lead debate. I'm a firm believer in not taking risks unless there's a suitable reward to be had. Furthermore, if there's a way to ameiliorate a risk that is relatively easy to do, then I do it. I think I posted somewhere the list of academic journals that discuss the reasons for immigration. To me, ameliorating the risk of Muslim terrorism as well as the risk of a growing group of religious fundamentalists influencing my society, is to simply take OTHER immigrants. Well, you would have to actually keep all Muslims out of Canada, and then maybe even people to convert to that religion. It depends, I guess. Given that you actually don't care about all forms of violence, how far are you willing to go to keep people of certain religions out of Canada ? I doubt there's anyone from a third world country who would hesitate to make whatever pledge he or she was asked in order to get into a western country like his. I hear people suggest, from time to time, that we force immigrants to 'commit to Canadian values' or somesuch. Guess you're not on board with that one... The fact this group is largely not very economically succesful in Canada makes it all the more commonsense, as far as I'm concerned, to switch to other source countries. It doesn't cost anything more, doesn't take more effort. So why wouldn't we? Because nation or religion may not be as great a signifier as, say, gender. If we found out that male immigrants were less productive than females would it be fine to change policy to women-only immigrants ? What about looking at other factors ? Really? I doubt there's anyone from a third world country who would hesitate to make whatever pledge he or she was asked in order to get into a western country like his. That has not noticeably prevented Muslim immigrants in Western countries from commiting acts of terrorism and violence. Ok, well unless you have another way to get people to pledge to "Canadian values There have been, for example, a lot of internet traffic related to sex crimes among Muslims in certain Western countries. That's no surprise. ... This makes sense when you see the way Muslims are treated in the media and the extraordinarily dumb and paternalistic view of other cultures in our society. It doesn't take a great imagination to see a lot of young Canadian men, going online in a western country and being quite convinced all the Muslims are criminals and deserve what they get. Heeeeeeeey... This makes sense when you see the way women are treated in many Muslim states, and the extraordinarly harsh paternalistic view of female sexuality in those societies. It doesn't take a great imagination to see a lot of young Muslim men, particularly Arab men, showing up in a western country and being quite convinced all the women are whores and deserve what they get. I accused you of exaggeration and your response was - I was simply continuing the analogy. Ok. I'm not worried about Israeli terrorists. This argument is very much about what YOU are worried about. This is why so few of us are convinced. If you make it about what we should be worried about then you'll win a few more over. What makes you think I'm socially conservative? Your views towards immigration and social change are conservative, ie. you do not want things to change so much, ie. you want to conserve the current order. If you maintain your culture, and your culture is deeply hostile towards certain types of behaviour, how are you going to become more tolerant? So it has nothing to do with the multicultural messaging - they were going to maintain their culture anyway. What, Ukrainians didn't come to Canada and work hard? Italians and Portugese didn't flock into the trades? And there are huge numbers of Europeans who speak English, throughout all these countries. Probably none are religious fanatics who want to blow people up either. These peoples aren't made out of some national fibre that decides their work ethic ! These things change with time, and the Europeans who came here to work arrived decades ago. Your views on these things come through, and they're just very simple. I think I agree with the overall methods you're proposing, if only because there are millions of Canadians who think of these things as you do - and because they vote they will need to be convinced of our policies using something better than a moral imperative. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
monty16 Posted July 7, 2014 Report Posted July 7, 2014 Grouping all Muslims together is an ethnic slur that we Canadians need to rise above Michael. The idea of them all being the same in that regard is invalid and repugnant in the extreme. We must never fear censorship for telling the truth. No matter who is offended by the truth. Quote
-1=e^ipi Posted July 7, 2014 Report Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) Michael, please go read the Qu'ran. And please try to understand the different types of Islam and why different groups believe what they want to believe. Because this conversation isn't going to go anywhere if you don't want to discuss Islam to understand where Argus and others are coming from. The same applies to Jacee, monty and other posters in this thread. Please go read the Qu'ran. Edit: Also reading the hadith is useful. Edited July 7, 2014 by -1=e^ipi Quote
-1=e^ipi Posted July 7, 2014 Report Posted July 7, 2014 Grouping all Muslims together is an ethnic slur that we Canadians need to rise above Michael. Muslims are not an ethnic group... Quote
Big Guy Posted July 7, 2014 Report Posted July 7, 2014 Michael, please go read the Qu'ran. And please try to understand the different types of Islam and why different groups believe what they want to believe. Because this conversation isn't going to go anywhere if you don't want to discuss Islam to understand where Argus and others are coming from. The same applies to Jacee, monty and other posters in this thread. Please go read the Qu'ran. Edit: Also reading the hadith is useful. http://www.noblequran.com/translation/ Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
-1=e^ipi Posted July 7, 2014 Report Posted July 7, 2014 http://www.noblequran.com/translation/ Thanks. I'll also add that reading various articles to understand why there are different interpretations of islam (shia vs sunni, moderate vs extreme, understanding what various labels mean such as islamist, wahabism, alawite, ete.) is useful. The biggest problem in western nations regarding discussions of foreign policy in Muslim majority countries or when discussing Muslim immigration is ignorance. Quote
carepov Posted July 7, 2014 Report Posted July 7, 2014 Missing? Absolutely. Most Canadians feel that, as individuals, they are better off as Canadians than as non-Canadians. That feeling is what unites us. As to the other list items, IME, the only names that all Canadians know are hockey players and federal politicians. Everyone in Quebec knows Joe Clark and Wayne Gretzky and everyone in Alberta knows Pierre Trudeau and Guy Lafleur. But as to anything else, I don't see much. Most people in BC have never heard of, uh, Coeur de Pirate and most people in Quebec have never heard of, uh, Gordon Pinsent. So what? We're a blingual state with no official, state-promoted culture. IOW, Canada is multicultural. ===== At the risk of crossing the Godwin point, Hitler used to ask such questions: "What unites the German-speaking people?" Well, Canada is a geographic term - like the equator. We are united because we live together well, but that's all. Mostly agree. What unites us most is our geography, our economy (the Canadian Dollar, Bank of Canada, big banks and other national companies) and our national government (House of Commons, federal laws, regulations and services). History? No, our history is short, and most Canadians are ignorant of it. Culture? Hockey of course, but more that that. The CBC. English and French Canadians know of the Hip, Celine Dion, Cirque du Soleil. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 8, 2014 Report Posted July 8, 2014 http://www.noblequran.com/translation/ The Holy Books largely have the same type of objectionable content, so I don't see why we need to discuss them. Reasonable people know that they're just ancient stories. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Big Guy Posted July 8, 2014 Report Posted July 8, 2014 The Holy Books largely have the same type of objectionable content, so I don't see why we need to discuss them. Reasonable people know that they're just ancient stories. I fully agree. The written guides for all established religions are a social template for survival. None explicitly condone or encourage hate or social turmoil. It is the bigoted zealot who interprets the writings to rationalize a dark and negative agenda which those uneducated seekers of answers misinterpret as divine directions. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted July 8, 2014 Report Posted July 8, 2014 The Holy Books largely have the same type of objectionable content, so I don't see why we need to discuss them. Reasonable people know that they're just ancient stories. That is entirely dependant upon what you believe is reasonable and what someone else believes is reasonable. One of the issues I have with regard to Islam is not just that their books are 'objectionable', which they are, but that unlike in Christian countries, they are taken as Gods own words. There is no taking the koran with a grain of salt as most Christians do their bible. Westerners realize the bible was written by men, not God. Men make mistakes and men have their own agendas, and the culture of those men was, by our standards, pretty primitive. There are any number of lessons in the bible which call for death for people doing a variety of what were considered to be sacriligous or immoral things, and as far as I know not a single major church believes in those punishments any more. Our societies punish for theft and murder, but that's about it. Muslims, however, and I realize I'm generalizing, DO indeed believe the Koran is the literal word of God. Qur'an For Muslims, the Qur'an is the eternal and indisputable word of God. The oldest and most sacred text of Islam, it is the cornerstone of every believer's faith and morality http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t243/e275 Also, unlike Christianity, there never was a reformation, and the judgement of Islam's scholars was and remains that the interpretations of the book cannot EVER be changed. Even talking about changing the interpretation is blasphemy, which is still punished by death in some Muslim countries, imprisonment in others. And unlike the bible, which dwelt on ones own personal morality, the Koran has a wider grasp, including how societies need to govern themselves, thus it has an entire legal code, quite a brutal one, though perhaps it wasn't considered so many centuries back. Thus while adultery is not a crime in the West, it is still punishable by death or imprisonment throughout the Muslim world, as is sex outside of marriage, as is homosexuality. And the superiority of man over woman, which is detailed in the Koran, remains in place throughout society and culture in the Muslim world. Women are sort of a lower life form, one to be taken care of by men, but also a dangerous life form which tempts men into immorality. That's why they must be made to cover themselves, and be beaten or killed when they engage in prohibited sexual conduct or behaviour. So where is the case for having millions more believers in this religion coming to Canada again? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 8, 2014 Report Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) I fully agree. The written guides for all established religions are a social template for survival. None explicitly condone or encourage hate or social turmoil. Uhmm... “God’s curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God’s own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers.” Quran 2:89-2:90 “When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Quran 9:5 “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123 “Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51 “Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Quran 48:29 Etcetera... http://freethoughtnation.com/what-does-the-koran-say-about-nonbelievers/ Edited July 8, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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