What unites Canadians?

[-1=e^ipi]

We arent. We are discussing our shared values for the most part.

I know that, but I was responding to a post that referenced a video by Chris Hadfield that implied that being Canadian is doing things like playing hockey, drinking beer, going canoeing, watching the cbc, eating timbits, being polite, etc.

Good pt, but really ,if you work hard, abide by the rules of the country ,treat your fellow man with respect, and do not kill in the name of the lord, and be polite , you are Canadian. LOL.

Lol, wtf is this?

No killing in the name of the lord? So other kinds of killing are okay? Why does it matter if it is in name of the 'lord' or not? And which 'lord' is this?

Being polite? I know lots of people that are impolite.

Working hard? I know many Canadians that are lazy and abuse the system.

Respect? Some people just do not deserve respect. Example: the criminals that mugged and assaulted me last week.

This definition can also apply to people that do not live in Canada...

[Argus]

What do you want me to say ? I can post you murder rates by country, as I have done in the past, and you come back with a different definition of violence to reinforce your preconceived idea that they're worse.

There's violence and then there's VIOLENCE. Gangsters shooting each others, as in Toronto, is not a big concern to me. Gangsters killing people in other countries is not a big concern either, since they're not here and have no interest in me. Their business is in territorial fights in their countries.

Religious violence, on the other hand, by people who see everyone who disagrees with them as a heretic in need of getting their head chopped off does concern me, however, especially when such people have a history of coming to western countries to carry out their violence. It also concerns me within the context of immigration and multicuralism, when we bring over large numbers of people from that religious community on the one hand, and encourage them to maintain their 'culture' on the other.

Maybe because you're not religious ? I don't know - only you can answer that. You're an intelligent person, and your response is reasonable but it doesn't withstand analysis. People should be judged on individual merits, and they should pledge to uphold the values of the country they're coming to. That should take care of most of your concerns about violence.

And in a fantasy world that would work fine. Let's go back to an analogy I've used before but further develop it. At one point in time LG fridges had the distressing habit of bursting into flames. Oh, not ALL of them by any means! Most of those fridges worked fine! But could I tell from looking at one in the store which it was going to be? Nope. Did I want to take the chance? Why would I take a chance when I could just as easily buy a GE fridge, none of which had ever burned down anyone's house?

If you know of a way to test a potential immigrant for their tolerance level, and how their religious dedication might affect them (regardless of how they lie) that would be nice. But so far no one seems to have found a way. Doctors, lawyers and engineers, ie, educated people, have all been guilty of commiting appalling terrorist acts, both in Muslim countries and in the West.

So when looking at potential immigrants, well, why not, given the desire of so many to come here, select immigrants who don't sometimes burst into flames? Recall statistics which have previously been posted on Muslim Canadian attitudes towards terrorism. Yes, the great majority are opposed! Which is nice, but it still leaves thousands who support terorrism or who would be willing to help or aid terrorists.

Further, even those who are opposed and would not help terrorism are exceedingly conservative on social issues and unwilling to change given the religious basis of their objection. To put it bluntly, they make Stephen Harper seem like Robert Mulcair. A million is not enough to affect our overall cultural values, but this group is doubling in size every ten years. And their values are, if anything, getting more deeply conservative.

It's a false choice. There aren't a million British or French citizens interested in coming here. If I'm wrong then let me know, and I will change my stance on this.

The unemployment rate for youth in Spain is about 50%. It's not much better in France. Lots of Irish youth are coming to Canada to work illegally, because they have no jobs at home. Italy is in even worse shape, to say nothing of Greece. And then there's eastern Europe. How many Ukrainians, Poles or Georgians do you suppose we could recruit there?

[guyser]

And in a fantasy world that would work fine. Let's go back to an analogy I've used before but further develop it. At one point in time LG fridges had the distressing habit of bursting into flames. Oh, not ALL of them by any means! Most of those fridges worked fine! But could I tell from looking at one in the store which it was going to be? Nope. Did I want to take the chance? Why would I take a chance when I could just as easily buy a GE fridge, none of which had ever burned down anyone's house?

Well as analogies go....so much for this one.

I suppose if LG is Muslim, then GE is what?

Feb 01, 2011

A bought new three year old GE profile refigerator caught fire undeneath, fortunately while we were eating dinner.The whole room started smalling like burning plastic - it took us a while to locate it.

---------------------

Consumers who own General Electric refrigerators may be entitled to compensation. It has been alleged that certain GE refrigerators have a defect that causes the refrigerator to stop operating and poses a fire risk.

[Argus]

I know that, but I was responding to a post that referenced a video by Chris Hadfield that implied that being Canadian is doing things like playing hockey, drinking beer, going canoeing, watching the cbc, eating timbits, being polite, etc.

All cliche'd and yet... are they really untrue? Oh, not EVERYONE does such things, but you'll never find EVERYONE doing or liking ANYTHING. So you have to search out the threads that run through our culture which apply to so many people, even if not everyone. Most of us remember summer camps, for example, or love our cottages, or we love skating and have memories of backyard ponds (that last one is probably dying since so many don't have backyards, or ones big enough for a pond). I think we, most of us, have an attachment to lakes rivers and forests which, while not unique to Canadians, perhaps, is certainly a common refrain in our cultural milleau. We love the summer so much because we don't get enough of it.

[Argus]

Well as analogies go....so much for this one.

Very clever. But the analogy works fine. Any electrical device can, on rare occasions burst into flames, any car too. But certain brands had a habit of doing so (can you say Pinto?)

[Michael Hardner]

There's violence and then there's VIOLENCE. Gangsters shooting each others, as in Toronto, is not a big concern to me. Gangsters killing people in other countries is not a big concern either, since they're not here and have no interest in me. Their business is in territorial fights in their countries.

Yes, exactly. This is about what concerns you, as it should be. That reflects your values, again as it should be. Your values are aggregated into some undefinable but real collective value for the jurisdiction in which you are a member of the public, along with mine and everyone's.

The difference is when you try to make your values into objective facts that everybody is expected to accept. It's not exactly what we've been arguing about but it's at the core of it.

Religious violence, on the other hand, by people who see everyone who disagrees with them as a heretic in need of getting their head chopped off does concern me, however,

Yes, clearly. More than the taking of a life by a gangster of another person, possibly also a gangster.

specially when such people have a history of coming to western countries to carry out their violence.

You're edging into the realm of objective information here. I do accept the basic premise of what you're saying, but you have to accept the subjectivity and values that you have put into your argument.

It doesn't mean that your argument is less meaningful, but it does mean that you can't expect me to accept is as I do objective facts. The objective fact is that South American, African and other countries have higher murder rates. If your argument was purely fact based (regarding violence) then you would never be mentioning Muslim countries.

It also concerns me within the context of immigration and multicuralism, when we bring over large numbers of people from that religious community on the one hand, and encourage them to maintain their 'culture' on the other.

We encourage multi-culturalism, not mono-culturalism. It may be insipid to you, but if you believe that this encouragement means anything then you must accept the "let's all get along" message is also effective. I certainly hear that message from immigrants that I work with.

Why would I take a chance when I could just as easily buy a GE fridge, none of which had ever burned down anyone's house?

It's a question of risk, to be crass. You drive a car don't you ? That's the riskiest thing that you do in your life, at least for most of us, and yet you do it.

What is the risk of terrorist death in Canada that is a direct result of our immigration policies ? What is the economic benefit ? Sadly, it comes down to money in the end.

I know you think that immigration isn't costed as well as other government programs. I think, rather, that there's a mix of hard data and instinct in politics and business too. Even so, there hasn't been a real political challenge to Muslim immigration to the US where one would have expected it.

If you know of a way to test a potential immigrant for their tolerance level, and how their religious dedication might affect them (regardless of how they lie) that would be nice. But so far no one seems to have found a way. Doctors, lawyers and engineers, ie, educated people, have all been guilty of commiting appalling terrorist acts, both in Muslim countries and in the West.

I think the fact that they want to come here, that they're told about our culture and asked to take an oath and pledge to our values is a good enough test for most people.

There is a lot of information about immigrant crime out there, some of it contradictory. The US stats (some studies) show lower rates for immigrants. Australia reported higher crime levels for Greeks and Italians from some studies too. Many countries have studies that show African immigrants have a higher incarceration rate.

If you think this is a problem, why not propose starting with a study to examine the problem and how to address it ? If you think that the dialogue is being stifled because those are conversations we don't want to have then more research is required, right ?

So when looking at potential immigrants, well, why not, given the desire of so many to come here, select immigrants who don't sometimes burst into flames?

Hyperbole. You're trying to play it both ways by making extreme statements on the one hand, and calling for rational discussion on the other hand. You won't be taken seriously in such a sensitive topic if you use inflammatory (sorry) language.

You yourself have stated that people don't want to have these conversations, ostensibly for reasons of sensitivity. Why not tread more likely ?

Recall statistics which have previously been posted on Muslim Canadian attitudes towards terrorism. Yes, the great majority are opposed! Which is nice, but it still leaves thousands who support terorrism or who would be willing to help or aid terrorists.

That's too subjective and arms length. Probably many Israeli Canadians have extreme views about the conflict there, so what are we supposed to do with that ? It's actions, not thoughts, that have to be policed.

Further, even those who are opposed and would not help terrorism are exceedingly conservative on social issues

... you mean like you are ...

and unwilling to change given the religious basis of their objection. To put it bluntly, they make Stephen Harper seem like Robert Mulcair. A million is not enough to affect our overall cultural values, but this group is doubling in size every ten years. And their values are, if anything, getting more deeply conservative.

Canadian cite please. You state that multiculturalism encourages them to keep their culture, so why doesn't it convince them to tolerate other cultures ?

The unemployment rate for youth in Spain is about 50%. It's not much better in France. Lots of Irish youth are coming to Canada to work illegally, because they have no jobs at home. Italy is in even worse shape, to say nothing of Greece. And then there's eastern Europe. How many Ukrainians, Poles or Georgians do you suppose we could recruit there?

Well, the Irish speak English ... sort of ... why do you think these other products of do-nothing-welfare-states are something to build our country on ?

You have to decide if you're looking for facts, or if you just want to bludgeon your negative opinions on people. If it's the former, then unfortunately your search will likely take you to places that force you to change your opinion. This is what I do all the time. It's about letting go, and admitting when you're wrong so that you can understand your world better.

[monty16]

Michael Hardner, Once again a polite and rational post. It's catching and it's convincing me totally that it's the best approach by far.

But I think you are sort of mssing a point or two. Those that oppose immigration, in either the US or Canada, are doing it with a very definite and explicit cause. It's just that in the US they aren't so clever in hiding their hate for other people of different ethnicities or races. If you listen to them they will spit it out like the venom it really is. Canadians are just a little more subtle about it.

And of particular interest to note, the ones who oppose immigration the most are those of the extreme political right, in both countries. It't s the brand of the extreme right, just as it was the brand of Nazism. Let it be known that they can't fool us into believing that it's a problem of the left. The right brags it up enough to blow their cover!

[Big Guy]

...

You have to decide if you're looking for facts, or if you just want to bludgeon your negative opinions on people. If it's the former, then unfortunately your search will likely take you to places that force you to change your opinion. This is what I do all the time. It's about letting go, and admitting when you're wrong so that you can understand your world better.

That is sound advice for everyone and anyone who desires to participate on opinion boards. Too often the tone is one of immediate confrontation and anger where the priority is to "hit" back and be the "winner". How often do we see "well you lose this one and ..."? While this participation is and can continue to be a game for some, it can be a forum for serious discussion and sharing of views. The "you don't understand ..." and "you are not smart enough ..." and "If you read more than ..." are not processes of learning or sharing.

What I find disappointing is that these boards seem to draw individuals who in the reality of life would suffer the consequences of demeaning, ridiculing, baiting and consciously aggravating another individual. I believe that these are basically cowards who have difficulty interacting with others and have to use the anonymity of these boards to satisfy that sociopathic behaviour.

Some are here to learn and share, others are here to air their dark agendas and yet others to vandalize.

But that is the nature of this medium.

[bush_cheney2004]

More nonsense to define Canadians as being different from Americans. There are more immigrants in the U.S. than the entire population of Canada.

Edited July 4, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

But I think you are sort of mssing a point or two. Those that oppose immigration, in either the US or Canada, are doing it with a very definite and explicit cause. It's just that in the US they aren't so clever in hiding their hate for other people of different ethnicities or races.

Is it explicit or is it hidden ? Those are contradictory adjective.

And - Argue the argument, not the person. I don't care if they're right or left. Most who have been on here awhile are comfortable enough in their own skin to take some from column A and some from column B.

[Michael Hardner]

Too often the tone is one of immediate confrontation and anger where the priority is to "hit" back and be the "winner".

I win all the time, because I learn more from each post I read.

What I find disappointing is that these boards seem to draw individuals who in the reality of life would suffer the consequences of demeaning, ridiculing, baiting and consciously aggravating another individual.

Sometimes but the worst offenders leave after awhile, or they are frustrated and change their ways.

[On Guard for Thee]

More nonsense to define Canadians as being different from Americans. There are more immigrants in the U.S. than the entire population of Canada.

I shouldn't have to remind you that you also have around 10 times the population of Canada. I think if you look at it a percentage basis, there won't be such an exxageration as your claim tries to invent.

[-1=e^ipi]

All cliche'd and yet... are they really untrue?

Yes.

So you have to search out the threads that run through our culture which apply to so many people, even if not everyone. Most of us remember summer camps, for example, or love our cottages, or we love skating and have memories of backyard ponds (that last one is probably dying since so many don't have backyards, or ones big enough for a pond). I think we, most of us, have an attachment to lakes rivers and forests which, while not unique to Canadians, perhaps, is certainly a common refrain in our cultural milleau. We love the summer so much because we don't get enough of it.

I don't mind looking for common traits that the vast majority of Canadians share, but I doubt that the the vast majority of Canadians would agree with any of your claims. Could you provide survey evidence to back up your claims?

[-1=e^ipi]

@ Micheal Hardner

In your response to Argus, you continually make requests for evidence and try to imply that you are reasonable, yet in this thread:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23095-does-progressive-racism-exist/page-8

Despite all the evidence provided, you refused to concede even basic points such as 'Canada should take into account the source countries of immigrants when determining who gets to come to Canada'.

Furthermore, you completely rejected Islamic texts as evidence, and rejected people explaining that their actions were justified by Islam (example: murder of Lee Rigby) because it violated your dogmatic view on the value of religion.

Tell me, do the recent gains by ISIS have anything to do with Islam? Why have they been so successful on social media (perhaps it has something to do with Islam...)? Are they just misunderstood?

You state that multiculturalism encourages them to keep their culture, so why doesn't it convince them to tolerate other cultures ?

Because some cultures are inherently intolerant.

Even so, there hasn't been a real political challenge to Muslim immigration to the US where one would have expected it.

Why would one expect this in the US? The US has not experienced significant Muslim immigration compared to Western Europe (or even Canada).

We encourage multi-culturalism, not mono-culturalism. It may be insipid to you, but if you believe that this encouragement means anything then you must accept the "let's all get along" message is also effective.

Question: If multiculturalism is inherently good, then does that make multicultural Canadian Society superior to monocultural South Korean Society? Why or why not?

[jacee]

Question: If multiculturalism is inherently good, then does that make multicultural Canadian Society superior to monocultural South Korean Society? Why or why not?

All off topic.

This isn't about superiority.

It's about what unites Canadians.

And I think maybe it's that we refuse to be defined.

.

[monty16]

Michael Hardner, I said it's being done with a very explicit cause. And I say they are trying to hide it but aren't successful. You haven't read it correctly. The cause is racist hate and hate for other ethnicities and they don't hide that fact very well. But Americans will try! There are all kinds of 'constitution', 'amendment', blah, blah excuses for not allowing Hispanics to become citizens but we Canadains know that's just b.s.

[jacee]

Michael Hardner, I said it's being done with a very explicit cause. And I say they are trying to hide it but aren't successful. You haven't read it correctly. The cause is racist hate and hate for other ethnicities and they don't hide that fact very well. But Americans will try! There are all kinds of 'constitution', 'amendment', blah, blah excuses for not allowing Hispanics to become citizens but we Canadains know that's just b.s.

monty it would help people understand the context of your posts if you quoted the post you are replying to.

.

[Argus]

And of particular interest to note, the ones who oppose immigration the most are those of the extreme political right, in both countries. It't s the brand of the extreme right, just as it was the brand of Nazism.

As is usual, your ignorance is vast.

In point of fact, the main opposition to immigration in the US comes from labor unions. They're fully aware of how heavy influxes of workers depress wages. Canadian unions are aware of this, as well, but Canadian unions have always cared more about political agitation than representing their members. I say this as a former shop clerk.

What is no doubt influencing your thoughts (such as they are) would be those small local protests in the southern US against illegals.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Argus

[Shady]

Many people, for whatever reason, like to conflate immigration, with illegal immigration. Purposely ignoring the significant differences between the two.

[monty16]

Nothing needs to be explained jacee, the US immigration problem won't be solved because business wants cheap labour and child labour. So maintain the status quo of illegals that they rely upon because so many of their businesses aren't viable anymore with paying even the minimum wage.

As if the ignorant swine who support it don't understand completely!

[Shady]

Nothing needs to be explained jacee, the US immigration problem won't be solved because business wants cheap labour and child labour. So maintain the status quo of illegals that they rely upon because so many of their businesses aren't viable anymore with paying even the minimum wage.

As if the ignorant swine who support it don't understand completely!

I finally agree with you about something monty! Cheap labour is bad, and depresses wages. The border should be secured, and the source of cheap labour stopped as soon as possible. People should have to go through the proper process of legal immigration. As the supply of labour drops, especially cheap labour, wages will rise. It's win-win.

[monty16]

What are you trying to say Shady? Explain how that's supposed to make any sense? There is no confusion between illegal immigration and immigration. One is bringing people in to work in a labour market at a decent wage that is mandated by law. Or at least passes as just barely decent. the other is keeping immigrants illegal so they can be employed for a buck or two a day and include their children in the labour so they can scrape by.

It's the most evil of crimes to continue to perpetuate it for profit. As I said, only evil swine would support that! Not referring to you as the evil swine of course. You have other motives.

[monty16]

Shady, if you agree with me then I take back my comment of you having 'other motives'.

[jacee]

Nothing needs to be explained jacee, the US immigration problem won't be solved because business wants cheap labour and child labour. So maintain the status quo of illegals that they rely upon because so many of their businesses aren't viable anymore with paying even the minimum wage.

As if the ignorant swine who support it don't understand completely!

It's also helpful to quote posts you're replying to so I get a notification and can respond.

I happened to come across my name in your post, but have no idea what you are referring to here.

[Argus]

The difference is when you try to make your values into objective facts that everybody is expected to accept. It's not exactly what we've been arguing about but it's at the core of it.

Are you suggesting my 'values' in being wary of religious violence coming to Canada are unique? I would suggest otherwise.

You're edging into the realm of objective information here. I do accept the basic premise of what you're saying, but you have to accept the subjectivity and values that you have put into your argument.

Again, the statement to which you're replying here was that Muslims have a history of bringing their religious violence to Western countries. As this is undoubted fact, where does the sugjectivity and values come into play?

The objective fact is that South American, African and other countries have higher murder rates. If your argument was purely fact based (regarding violence) then you would never be mentioning Muslim countries.

Have I ONLY ever mentioned Muslim countries? You and I have discussed Muslim countries, but if I was to put together a list of the top countries where we ought not be taking people from Jamaica, Somalia and Haiti would be at the top. I'm not as aware of who is up to the most violence on the West coast, but it appears to be East Indians.

We encourage multi-culturalism, not mono-culturalism. It may be insipid to you, but if you believe that this encouragement means anything then you must accept the "let's all get along" message is also effective. I certainly hear that message from immigrants that I work with.

Multi-culturalism encourages ethnic slums. We get along together by not being together, especially if we can't talk together.

It's a question of risk, to be crass. You drive a car don't you ? That's the riskiest thing that you do in your life, at least for most of us, and yet you do it.

And you know what I did before I bought that car? I did my research. I checked what kind of reliability it had, what its safety record was. I didn't just buy any old car at random. I didn't even look at Jeeps because of their poor history of reliability, for example.

What is the risk of terrorist death in Canada that is a direct result of our immigration policies ? What is the economic benefit ? Sadly, it comes down to money in the end.

I'm a firm believer in not taking risks unless there's a suitable reward to be had. Furthermore, if there's a way to ameiliorate a risk that is relatively easy to do, then I do it.

To me, ameliorating the risk of Muslim terrorism as well as the risk of a growing group of religious fundamentalists influencing my society, is to simply take OTHER immigrants. The fact this group is largely not very economically succesful in Canada makes it all the more commonsense, as far as I'm concerned, to switch to other source countries. It doesn't cost anything more, doesn't take more effort. So why wouldn't we?

I think the fact that they want to come here, that they're told about our culture and asked to take an oath and pledge to our values is a good enough test for most people.

Really? I doubt there's anyone from a third world country who would hesitate to make whatever pledge he or she was asked in order to get into a western country like his. That has not noticeably prevented Muslim immigrants in Western countries from commiting acts of terrorism and violence.

If you think this is a problem, why not propose starting with a study to examine the problem and how to address it ? If you think that the dialogue is being stifled because those are conversations we don't want to have then more research is required, right ?

Canada does not conduct such research. It does not collect information about the religion of people arrested or convicted. There have been, for example, a lot of internet traffic related to sex crimes among Muslims in certain Western countries. This makes sense when you see the way women are treated in many Muslim states, and the extraordinarly harsh paternalistic view of female sexuality in those societies. It doesn't take a great imagination to see a lot of young Muslim men, particularly Arab men, showing up in a western country and being quite convinced all the women are whores and deserve what they get. I have no idea if that is an issue in Canada, however, younger women of my acquaintance who are still in their club going years all swear that Arab men are extremely agressive in their search for sex. So, is there an issue here? I can't say because the media does not report the ethnicity, much less religion of those involved, and the police keep no statistics.

Hyperbole. You're trying to play it both ways by making extreme statements on the one hand, and calling for rational discussion on the other hand.

I was simply continuing the analogy.

That's too subjective and arms length. Probably many Israeli Canadians have extreme views about the conflict there, so what are we supposed to do with that ?

I'm not worried about Israeli terrorists.

... you mean like you are ...

What makes you think I'm socially conservative? And there are degrees to such things, as you are surely aware. For example, being mildly discomforted about gay sex would be a considerably milder social reaction than believing all gays ought to be imprisoned or executed. As for women, the less they wear the better, depending on body type.

Canadian cite please. You state that multiculturalism encourages them to keep their culture, so why doesn't it convince them to tolerate other cultures ?

If you maintain your culture, and your culture is deeply hostile towards certain types of behaviour, how are you going to become more tolerant? Do you know any deeply religious people who have no cares or concerns with regard to female sexuality or gays, for example?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/its-muslim-kids-not-parents-who-are-embracing-a-politicized-islam/article585747/

Well, the Irish speak English ... sort of ... why do you think these other products of do-nothing-welfare-states are something to build our country on ?

What, Ukrainians didn't come to Canada and work hard? Italians and Portugese didn't flock into the trades?

And there are huge numbers of Europeans who speak English, throughout all these countries. Probably none are religious fanatics who want to blow people up either.