Ontario Teachers Preparing for Possible Strike

[MiddleClassCentrist]

No.

It's a choice.

.

Maybe you didn't read where non-Cathlolics can't choose to go to their elementary schools. That's not a choice.

And you ignored the definition of segregation which clearly applies, whether forcible or not.

Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Keepitsimple]

Teaching is the one job that should not be governed by labour policies. It should not be about guaranteed jobs - it should be about having the best teachers teaching our children. What could be more important. Cast-iron seniority protection creates an entitlement that ultimately leads to less than stellar teaching. That's a broad generalization but lets face it - there are literally thousands of new eager, enthusiastic, modernized teachers trying to break into the teaching ranks - only to be held back by the Union seniority rules. There is no more important resource than our children - and we do them no justice with the current system. Mike Harris had it right - test the teachers and test the students. If you can't measure, you can't manage. The Unions were being reined in - and then McGuinty got in and Wynne is following in his footsteps. Pay them off. I don't really blame the teachers - it's the politicization of the unions and their militant bosses. Our kids end up suffering.

[Argus]

If you'd like to explain how language and religion are parallel in implementation and discrimination I'd be glad to hear it. French is a language that can be learned like any other language, and does not require you to unlearn and stop using previous languages. One could practice French to develop the required skills to teach Francophones, if they so chose to.

So you're okay with discrimination then? Why is it okay to discriminate for languages but not for religions? Especially when the discrimination is a historical artifact in both cases?

[Bob Macadoo]

So you're okay with discrimination then? Why is it okay to discriminate for languages but not for religions? Especially when the discrimination is a historical artifact in both cases?

His point is you can't discriminate a job/attendance on language as that can be learned thereby eliminating the difference, not that I agree.....but you just want to argue. You actually believed they contributed <15% to their pension.....it shows a bias.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[Mighty AC]

The separation of church and state don't enter into it. And I rather doubt there'd be that much cost savings.

How about we stop full day kindergarten, which has not shown to be of any real value, and which would save even more?

The state is funding a school system for one religion...that's a problem. The cost of separate school boards, offices, administration and transportation really adds up.

Educationally FDK has seemingly been of little value so far, however it has been then only initiative to actually help with daycare concerns. My oldest child was pre-FDK and it was a pain in the rear managing the after school care. I would often have to leave work mid-day to transport my child to a daycare. So as a parent with young kids I have been pleased with not only the daycare aspect of FDK but also the new pilot projects that bring outside groups to the schools to provide both before/after school care along with beneficial activities. My kids are now in an extremely affordable after school program run by an outside organization. This group provides healthy snacks and uses school and municipal facilities to engage kids in sports, games and crafts.

Also, the new play and exploration based kindergarten curriculum that is still being rolled out has been beneficial, but time consuming. FDK, provides the additional time necessary to allow for natural inquiry based learning to happen. Since, the implementation of this curriculum is still in transition, I expect FDK educational stats to improve over the next few years. I also expect the very important, but seldom measured stat of child affinity for learning to increase as well.

[Moonbox]

No.

It's a choice.

.

One that's made available only to Catholics. That's like saying "Whites-only Country Clubs" aren't segregated because whites can choose to attend them, or to mingle with other ethnic groups.

The fact that taxpayers are forced to fund only one denomination of only one religion, essentially forcing public money into the promotion and spread of that religion, is comical. It's a relic of a backwards past and has no purpose in today's Canada.

[jacee]

Maybe you didn't read where non-Cathlolics can't choose to go to their elementary schools. That's not a choice.

How do you explain the presence of Muslim students in Catholic schools, described earlier?

Principals fill their schools to capacity to get maximum per diem grants.

And you ignored the definition of segregation which clearly applies, whether forcible or not.

Such exaggerations discredit what may well be a legitimate view.

.

Edited June 12, 2014 by jacee

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Such exaggerations discredit what may well be a legitimate view.

.

There is no exaggeration, Moonbox said it best so I'll just quote what was said again:

One that's made available only to Catholics. That's like saying "Whites-only Country Clubs" aren't segregated because whites can choose to attend them, or to mingle with other ethnic groups.

The fact that taxpayers are forced to fund only one denomination of only one religion, essentially forcing public money into the promotion and spread of that religion, is comical. It's a relic of a backwards past and has no purpose in today's Canada.

[Topaz]

MY beef is seniors, who have NO relatives in the school system, have to pay education tax. Why? Many seniors are struggling to just pay their bills, which are increasing yearly and I don't think they should have to pay for a service they don't use.

[Moonbox]

No offence Topaz but that's a silly beef to have. That's like saying it's unfair that young Canadians shouldn't have to pay taxes to support OAS. You don't get to pick and choose which public programs your tax dollars support. Your vote doesn't give you that entitlement.

[Big Guy]

No offence Topaz but that's a silly beef to have. That's like saying it's unfair that young Canadians shouldn't have to pay taxes to support OAS. You don't get to pick and choose which public programs your tax dollars support. Your vote doesn't give you that entitlement.

I think that through your vote you can influence which services are paid for from the general public purse and which are paid for by the user. The idea of road tolls to pay for infrastructure, gas tax to pay for public transit, the amount of subsidy from a government for public transportation etc. On the municipal level, the discussion of user fees and municipal subsidy or funding is decided by councils regarding arena costs, hall rentals, local fairs, arts, government services etc. Often, the municipality has to negotiate with school boards on who pays for crossing guards, school functions etc.

Who pays these costs or what percentage of those costs vary greatly from municipality to municipality - depending who you have voted in to your council.

On the provincial level your elected representatives decide whether a highway will be run like the 407 or the 401 in Toronto and where traffic lights will be installed on provincial highways.

[Smallc]

No offence Topaz but that's a silly beef to have. That's like saying it's unfair that young Canadians shouldn't have to pay taxes to support OAS. You don't get to pick and choose which public programs your tax dollars support. Your vote doesn't give you that entitlement.

In Manitoba they're making it so seniors pay no education property tax. It's as if people believe that seniors don't benefit from the system and never did. It doesn't even make sense.

[overthere]

MY beef is seniors, who have NO relatives in the school system, have to pay education tax. Why? Many seniors are struggling to just pay their bills, which are increasing yearly and I don't think they should have to pay for a service they don't use.

On the other hand, I have no old people in my family.

I am struggling to pay my bills. Why should I pay huge huge amounts of my taxes at every level to pay for their Old Age Security, inflated health care costs, drugs, false teeth, subsidized bus passes, tax exemptions at every level of govt etc etc etc.? I don't use any of these services.

[Moonbox]

I think that through your vote you can influence which services are paid for from the general public purse and which are paid for by the user.

Yes, that's exactly right. That's where your influence lays, not in opting to pay for and use services that you feel benefit you. If that's how things worked, we might as well not have public services. You can privatize the whole deal.

In Manitoba they're making it so seniors pay no education property tax. It's as if people believe that seniors don't benefit from the system and never did. It doesn't even make sense.

No it's completely ludicrous. It's some of the most insane rationalization you could come up with.

[Argus]

The state is funding a school system for one religion...that's a problem. The cost of separate school boards, offices, administration and transportation really adds up.

To what? You're taking the attitude eliminating the Catholic system would eliminate the need for all they do. It wouldn't. The public system would suddenly have a lot more schools, and and the public boards would need a lot more people. Would there be some savings? Yeah, probably, but I'm not sure how much. Municipal amalgamation was supposed to save a fortune wasn't it? You notice that happening?

Educationally FDK has seemingly been of little value so far, however it has been then only initiative to actually help with daycare concerns.

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to provide daycare than to hire high priced teachers to teach kindergarteners how to fingerpaint.

My oldest child was pre-FDK and it was a pain in the rear managing the after school care.

So now you have daycare with $75,000 fingerpainting experts I have to pay for.

[Mighty AC]

So now you have daycare with $75,000 fingerpainting experts I have to pay for.

Cute. Kids do come out of Kindergarten reading and doing basic math. Anyway, those teachers would be working regardless. Under FDK class sizes are quite a bit larger most of the additional staffing has been met by low priced ECE workers.

I believe daycare centers must have something like a 1 to 5/6 ECE to child ratio. In Kindergarten, 1 teacher and 1 ECE are responsible for +/- 25 kids. Considering the bulk of the teachers would be working anyway, I suspect the cost difference between FDK and part time K with daycare would be negligible. Plus, parents still foot the bill for before and after school care. The change being onsite daycare is always available, making it far easier for working parents.

[socialist]

I know teachers in Ontario fought hard to prevent Hudak from getting elected. This is what solidarity is all about. at least Ontario teachers won't have to go through what BC teachers are dealing with. The added stress BC teachers are feeling disgusts me.