Taliban attacks Pakistani airport.

[GostHacked]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/09/world/asia/pakistan-karachi-airport-attacks/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Karachi, Pakistan (CNN) -- Terrorists entered Karachi's Jinnah International airport at two different spots with a big plan: to destroy a group of parked airplanes and "bring down our aviation industry," according to the Pakistani government.

It was late Sunday night, and the militants were armed with guns, grenades, and suicide vests. They went into the cargo area, about a kilometer (0.62 miles) from where commercial planes take off.

In a "heroic" effort, security forces "laid down their lives" to block the terminal and stop the attackers, surrounding them and killing all of them, the prime minister's office said in a statement.

There were 10 terrorists, military spokesman Maj. Gen. Asim Bajwa said, and two of them detonated suicide vests.

By the time the attack was over, 28 people were dead, including eight members of airport security forces, two Pakistan International Airlines employees and one ranger. Another 24 people were injured, the military said.

I recall someone saying that the Taliban were not that big of a threat anymore. But then this happens. So the Taliban is not weak, and still has a good reach.

[Big Guy]

It is going to be difficult in figuring out who are the bad guys and good guys in this particular battle. Of course the killing of civilians is an abomination but that is what happens in a war. The Taliban are their usual self, based in the fundamentalist society of the Pashtuns. There are about 15 million Pashtuns in Afghanistan and about 30 million in Pakistan. It is the West who decided to split them mainly between these two countries. Their loyalty is to their tribe and no some lines that we drew on a map. So the Taliban continue to bomb and shoot people while the Pakistan gov't continues to harbor Al Qaeda. Too bad that Pakistan has the bomb so the West has to play ball with them.

I suspect that there are different groups within the Taliban as there are different sectors within Al Qaeda. I think that the West is making a mistake by looking at them as cohesive entities, labelling them all as terrorists and rejecting any attempt to try to understand them and what they want. I suspect that different groups have different agendas, perhaps agendas that could be satisfied causing a rift and weakening the whole.

Sounds strange? I remember a couple of years ago when the idea of negotiating with the Taliban would be scoffed at. To-day, not only are we negotiating with them but accepting the fact that they will probably be part of the next government of Afghanistan.

BTW - Remember those maniacal communist monsters of North Vietnam that the USA (and a few Canadians) gave their lives to annihilating?

"In October 2013, the United States and Vietnam signed a pact allowing for the transfer of nuclear fuel and technology from the U.S. to Vietnam, who is already working with Russia to complete its first nuclear plant by 2014 to meet its rising energy demands, with an American official noting that, "Vietnam is actively taking steps now toward development of a robust domestic infrastructure to support a nuclear energy program."

Additionally, US and Vietnam also cooperate in Clean Energy Sector. Recently, US Ambassador to Vietnam announced technical assistance for developing Wind Power Systems.

And as for Canada;

http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/fipa-apie/vietnam.aspx?lang=eng

Go Figure!

Edited June 9, 2014 by Big Guy

[overthere]

Pakistan is an utterly corrupt state where you can never be quite sure who pays for the guns, or who is shooting them. The miliatry and internal security forces both have their own political agendas and it is entirely possible this 'terrrorist' attack involved one or both services.

Wheels within wheels.

[GostHacked]

It is going to be difficult in figuring out who are the bad guys and good guys in this particular battle.

To me that has been muddied for some time.

f course the killing of civilians is an abomination but that is what happens in a war. The Taliban are their usual self, based in the fundamentalist society of the Pashtuns. There are about 15 million Pashtuns in Afghanistan and about 30 million in Pakistan. It is the West who decided to split them mainly between these two countries. Their loyalty is to their tribe and no some lines that we drew on a map. So the Taliban continue to bomb and shoot people while the Pakistan gov't continues to harbor Al Qaeda. Too bad that Pakistan has the bomb so the West has to play ball with them.

Good points about borders being drawn where nomadic type people do not care about the borders someone else drew up. But we don't need to play nice with Pakistan. Nor should we. Also you are correct on the different groups. Al-Queda is not a homogenous group like the media portrays them to be.

Sounds strange? I remember a couple of years ago when the idea of negotiating with the Taliban would be scoffed at. To-day, not only are we negotiating with them but accepting the fact that they will probably be part of the next government of Afghanistan.

And trading top terrorists for a sullied soldier.

And to your other comments, the grand chessboard sees the move of another pawn.

[Big Guy]

The Taliban is claiming that the attack was in retaliation for the drone attack by the USA that killed one of the Taliban leaders.

So some military US guy sitting in front of a monitor in Phoenix Arizona, plays "kill the Taliban by remote drone" on his computer and makes a hit. The Taliban reply by blowing the heck out of a Pakistan airport and sending a few confused security guards to their deaths and some Taliban suicide bombers to their desired destination.

The next day, the military guy in Phoenix comes in to work again, turns on his computer and ...

Ain't war fun!

[The_Squid]

The Taliban got together an army of 10....

Yes, 10 armed terrorists can do a significant amount of damage.... But it's 10 guys!!

Edited June 11, 2014 by The_Squid

[Smallc]

10 guys in the same unstable country they operate out of...so scary.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Smallc

[Guest]

The Taliban is claiming that the attack was in retaliation for the drone attack by the USA that killed one of the Taliban leaders.

So some military US guy sitting in front of a monitor in Phoenix Arizona, plays "kill the Taliban by remote drone" on his computer and makes a hit. The Taliban reply by blowing the heck out of a Pakistan airport and sending a few confused security guards to their deaths and some Taliban suicide bombers to their desired destination.

The next day, the military guy in Phoenix comes in to work again, turns on his computer and ...

Ain't war fun!

Well, I remember the Nazis razed Lidice because the allies killed Heydrich. I guess they could have left him alive.

[jbg]

Pakistan is an utterly corrupt state where you can never be quite sure who pays for the guns, or who is shooting them. The miliatry and internal security forces both have their own political agendas and it is entirely possible this 'terrrorist' attack involved one or both services.

Wheels within wheels.

I'll tell you one thing; not a person cares about economic development or the cares of the average Pakistani. Edited June 12, 2014 by jbg

[monty16]

10 guys in the same shit hole country they operate out of...so scary.

It's an attitude problem when a country is referred to as a shit hole. It's as much as saying that the people of that country are of the same quality.

And it's a US manufactured attitude that has no place coming out of Canadians.

Just keep trying and we'll give them the reasons they need to regard Canada as the same as their US victim of revenge. Go ahead and show them how tough we can at least pretend to be but don't bother crying over the spilt milk on our very own 9/11.

[monty16]

I'll tell you one thing; not a person cares about economic development or the cares of the average Pakistani.

I don't think that's true of even all Americans. Some are worthwhile human beings regardless of what we are supposed to think! Gotta love when you come out with your real thoughts though!

[Smallc]

The country has been on a marked decline in terms of peace and security. I should have been more descriptive.

I've now changed it to better language.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't think that's true of even all Americans.....

Go asked more than a billion Indians...they live next door to Pakistan.

[Argus]

Pakistan is like India. 98% of the people don't matter a damned. The country is run by the elites, and the elites have their own agendas and are ruthless in how they fulfill them. The deaths or misery and poverty of their countrymen doesn't even enter their thinking. Do you worry if an ant gets stepped on when you walk by? Does it concern you? I recall a story a few months back about a ten year old Pakistani girl who was beaten to death by the woman she worked for as a maid. The woman experssed no remorse, and no particular fears, either. She knew she'd have to pay some minor fine and that would be that. And she was only middle class. Imagine how the rich and powerful think of the common people!

India has nuclear weapons, nuclear submarines, and sends rockets into space. But the majority of its people have never seen a toilet. There is no indoor plumbing in most Indian homes. Sanittaion is a problem across the country, with garbage and open sewage everywhere. But the government doesn't give a damn. It's the same in Pakistan. They don't care about security guards or soldiers dying or what the crazy tribesmen do. They're safe and secure in their walled compounds in the big cities and that's all that matters to them.

Life in this part of the world is short and brutal, and its people don't expect anything better.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Argus

[monty16]

Pakistan is like India. 98% of the people don't matter a damned. The country is run by the elites, and the elites have their own agendas and are ruthless in how they fulfill them. The deaths or misery and poverty of their countrymen doesn't even enter their thinking. Do you worry if an ant gets stepped on when you walk by? Does it concern you? I recall a story a few months back about a ten year old Pakistani girl who was beaten to death by the woman she worked for as a maid. The woman experssed no remorse, and no particular fears, either. She knew she'd have to pay some minor fine and that would be that. And she was only middle class. Imagine how the rich and powerful think of the common people!

India has nuclear weapons, nuclear submarines, and sends rockets into space. But the majority of its people have never seen a toilet. There is no indoor plumbing in most Indian homes. Sanittaion is a problem across the country, with garbage and open sewage everywhere. But the government doesn't give a damn. It's the same in Pakistan. They don't care about security guards or soldiers dying or what the crazy tribesmen do. They're safe and secure in their walled compounds in the big cities and that's all that matters to them.

Life in this part of the world is short and brutal, and its people don't expect anything better.

Your ugly disdain for other people of the world is telling of your attitude. Referring to others as ants says all we need to hear. But always keep in mind, the only thing that is saving those people who you regard as insects is the fact that they are nuclear armed and hence, immune to bullying by people of your persuasion.

We all must not let ourselves be persuaded by this ignorant and ugly demonizing of people in other countries. If we do then it just makes it easier for us to be persuaded by the US propaganda that is meant to justify killing them.

[Smallc]

What is untrue about his post? Your disgust says nothing about that.

[monty16]

What is untrue about his post? Your disgust says nothing about that.

I don't have the time or the patience to explain it to you. But if you read the applicable posts and make a try on your own to understand then I will perhaps get involved. Please try at least. You can be a worthwhile part of any of these discussions if you apply yourself.

[Big Guy]

. But the government doesn't give a damn. It's the same in Pakistan. They don't care about security guards or soldiers dying or what the crazy tribesmen do. They're safe and secure in their walled compounds in the big cities and that's all that matters to them.

Life in this part of the world is short and brutal, and its people don't expect anything better.

I do understand that demeaning, ridiculing and dehumanizing a whole population is an effective means of rationalizing military action against them. This is done consciously in an attempt to convince soldiers to kill their “enemy”. The “slant eyed yellow menace” and the “murdering Huns” of WWII served to sooth the conscience of those who find killing to be distasteful. It made the obliteration of 200,000 old men, women and children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki appear acceptable.

The process continues with General Rick Hilliers, “ These are detestable murderers and scumbags, I'll tell you that right up front. They detest our freedoms, they detest our society, they detest our liberties”.

These are the same detestable murderers and scumbags who will be part of the Afghanistan government and with whom the Americans are negotiating and trading prisoners.

I suggest that lumping everyone in a society as having the same common negative trait is not only inaccurate but also dangerous. We cannot begin to establish relationships with others on this earth if we do not learn to understand them and respect who they are and what caused them to live the way they do.

The simplistic reaction to actions of a society that we do not understand is to look at them as a homogeneous collection of "ignorants" or “thugs” or “criminals” or “fanatics” or “murderers” or whatever term we can use to dehumanize them. We can then just dismiss them as having some human behavioural aberration and rationalize killing them.

As Sun Tzu observed many years ago:

“So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.

If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.

If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.”

We have been endangering ourselves for many years.

[GostHacked]

Good post Big Guy.

[overthere]

I agree with the bulk of your post but not with your examples of Hiroshima etc. in this:

I do understand that demeaning, ridiculing and dehumanizing a whole population is an effective means of rationalizing military action against them. This is done consciously in an attempt to convince soldiers to kill their “enemy”. The “slant eyed yellow menace” and the “murdering Huns” of WWII served to sooth the conscience of those who find killing to be distasteful. It made the obliteration of 200,000 old men, women and children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki appear acceptable.

The outbreak of all out war in 1939 required a huge mobilization of men and a national refocus of industry for Canada and all her Allies. Demonizing the Germans and Japanese was not difficult since they were seen as aggressors, and did indeed conduct some horrific atrocities early in and before the war. There was certainly an element of racism in recruitment, but it was really not that big an element. In Canada, two things drew young men to enlist. One was the common theme found in many wars- "all my friends are going on a grand adventure in foreign lands on a noble mission and I will too"(keeping in mind that 1939 was a time when very few people ever ventured far from home in their lives). The other reason was more prosaic. When war broke out Canada was just barely emerging from nearly a decade of economic meltdown and jobs were still hard to come by. Joing the army gave you three squares and a roof, and more importantly relived your family of the strain of providing them.

The stated reason fro bombing Japan with atomic weapons was that it would end the war without invading Japan and thereby save hundreds of thousands of Allied(mostly Americans, since they carried the vast bulk of action in the Pacific War). It would also save the lives of millions of Japanese civilians. I think that was true, the Japanese amply demonstrated that were impacable fierce warriors that would willingly fight to the last person, and that included the civilian population. An appeal to 'slant eyed yellow menace' was not necessary to motivate anybody by that point.

[Big Guy]

...

The stated reason fro bombing Japan with atomic weapons was that it would end the war without invading Japan and thereby save hundreds of thousands of Allied(mostly Americans, since they carried the vast bulk of action in the Pacific War). It would also save the lives of millions of Japanese civilians. I think that was true, the Japanese amply demonstrated that were impacable fierce warriors that would willingly fight to the last person, and that included the civilian population. An appeal to 'slant eyed yellow menace' was not necessary to motivate anybody by that point.

You may be absolutely correct because it is difficult to compare what actually happened with what could (or would) have happened.

I believe the theory that we took thousands of civilian Japanese lives to save more thousands of Japanese lives will continue to be controversial unless more detailed information from the Japanese side during that period becomes available. There are still many who would theorize that it was considered far easier to annihilate those Japanese civilians than accept the large number of casualties on our side if/when an invasion of Japan took place - but we could argue that point for years.

The point I am trying to make with this example is that it is necessary to dehumanize your opponent so that you do not have to deal with the reasons why he is your opponent. I notice in our media (and on this board) where those in the ME are referred to as thugs, rugheads, murderers, assassins ... The reference to the "76 vestal virgins" waiting for suicide bombers is ridiculed as to their beliefs. Meanwhile, how many fighters from the West have the dedication to act as suicide bombers against those "rugheads"? We have to feel that there is something insane or "crazy" or extremist or unnatural for someone to be a suicide bomber. We do not want to consider that these are passionate nationalists who are so dedicated to their cause that it supersedes the value of their lives. Remember the Kamikaze?

ISIS is a well organized (with an AP) that has collected $millions and understands their people. With their acquisitions (spoils of war) they are collecting as they waltz through Northern Iraq they are estimated to be worth over $2 billion. They provide funding for the families of their soldiers who have been killed and provide a social and financial blanket for their followers.

We are still being told that they are "terrorists" and "thugs" and "murderers" but they are being treated as "liberators" by the Sunni population in the North. I know things will change once they encounter the Shiites in Baghdad and Southern Iraq.

We keep hearing of "surprising" events that are occurring in that area. Surprise means unexpected. It is only a surprise to those who still arrogantly believe in the superiority of our countries and our cultures.

We just do not seem to get it.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Big Guy

[Army Guy]

I do understand that demeaning, ridiculing and dehumanizing a whole population is an effective means of rationalizing military action against them. This is done consciously in an attempt to convince soldiers to kill their “enemy”. The “slant eyed yellow menace” and the “murdering Huns” of WWII served to sooth the conscience of those who find killing to be distasteful. It made the obliteration of 200,000 old men, women and children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki appear acceptable.

The process continues with General Rick Hilliers, “ These are detestable murderers and scumbags, I'll tell you that right up front. They detest our freedoms, they detest our society, they detest our liberties”.

These are the same detestable murderers and scumbags who will be part of the Afghanistan government and with whom the Americans are negotiating and trading prisoners.

At the time the good Gen makes this quote heard around the country, he was talking about the taliban, and numerous terrorist organizations involved in combat with NATO forces.....did he say it to dehumanize our enemies, so our soldiers did not have issues with pulling the trigger....i don't think so, he said it because it was based on fact, they hated us because of our freedoms,our soiciety, our liberties, our standard of living, and the fact we were not Muslim.....and we hated them because they were murders,scumbags, cowards, who would do anything to hold on to what little power they had over the people of Afghan....

Are they part of the Afghan government today ?....Once NATO leaves what does it matter who makes up the next Afghan govrnment it is their nation and what direction they chose to go is their own choice.....

and as for the Americans trading POW's ....no man is left behind a soldiers creed.....sometimes this is all they have to look forward to....besides they do this if he was military, or part of some peace nik group...in the end he is an American Citizen...

[Big Guy]

At the time the good Gen makes this quote heard around the country, he was talking about the taliban, and numerous terrorist organizations involved in combat with NATO forces.....did he say it to dehumanize our enemies, so our soldiers did not have issues with pulling the trigger....i don't think so, he said it because it was based on fact, they hated us because of our freedoms,our soiciety, our liberties, our standard of living, and the fact we were not Muslim.....and we hated them because they were murders,scumbags, cowards, who would do anything to hold on to what little power they had over the people of Afghan....

Are they part of the Afghan government today ?....Once NATO leaves what does it matter who makes up the next Afghan govrnment it is their nation and what direction they chose to go is their own choice.....

and as for the Americans trading POW's ....no man is left behind a soldiers creed.....sometimes this is all they have to look forward to....besides they do this if he was military, or part of some peace nik group...in the end he is an American Citizen...

Do you still believe that the Talban are diabolical fanatics intent on suppressing their people?

Historically, they were the few people in the village who showed some interest in education. They were then sent to Madras to study religion and came back to the villages as their spiritual leaders, judges, advisors etc.

When did they become scumbags, murderers, cowards and power hungry dictators?

Are you sure that they hated us because of our freedoms,our soiciety, our liberties, our standard of living, and the fact we were not Muslim.....? As to cowards, blowing yourself up in defence of your country does not look like a cowardly act. It may not be the brightest thing one can do but it certainly is not cowardly.

I can understand and sympathize with your opinion and view. It is similar to what I have heard from those who fought in Vietnam. If you can not be made to hate who you are pointing at then it is very difficult to pull the trigger.

As to ".. what does it matter who makes up the next Afghan govrnment it is their nation and what direction they chose to go is their own choice....." That is a refreshing point of view - one that we should have held before we got involved.

[Army Guy]

Do you still believe that the Talban are diabolical fanatics intent on suppressing their people?

Historically, they were the few people in the village who showed some interest in education. They were then sent to Madras to study religion and came back to the villages as their spiritual leaders, judges, advisors etc.

When did they become scumbags, murderers, cowards and power hungry dictators?

Are you sure that they hated us because of our freedoms,our soiciety, our liberties, our standard of living, and the fact we were not Muslim.....? As to cowards, blowing yourself up in defence of your country does not look like a cowardly act. It may not be the brightest thing one can do but it certainly is not cowardly.

I can understand and sympathize with your opinion and view. It is similar to what I have heard from those who fought in Vietnam. If you can not be made to hate who you are pointing at then it is very difficult to pull the trigger.

As to ".. what does it matter who makes up the next Afghan govrnment it is their nation and what direction they chose to go is their own choice....." That is a refreshing point of view - one that we should have held before we got involved.

Yes i do, very much so....what has changed for the taliban, they have been kicked out of Afghanistan....they no longer hold millions of regular Afghanis citizens under thier rule....and yes you can show a few examples of the taliban being human....but i can show you books upon books of their crimes....a couple good moments does not change the fact of whom they are....You say historically education is not been on everyones list and yet, education rates went up after the taliban was de throned....

Big guy i can fill like i said books upon books on just the things i seen...but i don't want you to take my word for it, the inter net is full of other accounts read them please...and decide for your self who these thugs really are...

As for hating us "western culture" ya i'm sure ask a few of them....they would be more than gladly inform you, that we are infidels that need to be destroyed without question....

How many of those suicide bombers done what they did on their own free will....Not many, most are forced to save their families,friends etc.....another telling act is most suicide bombers have an escort that can dentonate the bomb via remote means "just incase they change their minds"....

I won't lie to you hate did play a role, but it was not they only factor, what the taliban did was take advantage of the Afghanis people through force and terror....up until my first tour i could not of even picked out Afghanistan on a map...i knew nothing of there culture, and ways....what i did know was most of them had lived with 30 years of conflict, and they did not have the means to change that....Canada and it's military could assist in giving them back some of the things that we take for granted but alot of Afghanis had not experienced "freedom"....As a soldier that was worth fighting for....that and the fact that our unit was being deployed, my comrads where being deployed and i needed to be there with them....

Hate does make it easier to pull the trigger, but that does not come until later, pulling the trigger is part of our training, until it is second nature....pulling the trigger is the easy part it is living with your actions that become the hard part.....and like in any war bad things happen, comrads die..killing the enemy is the best way to keep your comrads alive, killing the enemy is the fastest way to end the conflict....killing become part of your routine you did it because of your comrads, family, your country....and to help those that could not help themselfs....

It has always been their chioce, what we westerns think is a mout piont, and we seem to forget that....they have been in constant conflict for well over 30 years, almost a generation, all the people of Afghan want is peace, they don't care what it looks like, to be able to raise their family, feed them, and increase their status in life.....and with the west given up because we lost the will to help...who else are they going to turn to....it is them who will live with the consquences....one they never had when under taliban rule...

[marcus]

Start owning, rather than denying. Not one comment about the role that the West has had in festering and nurturing these extremist groups with their actions around the world.