Moncton NB shooting

[Signals.Cpl]

Ok then here goes a last kick at this one

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVj_Cw5RT11MALX4XFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBya3R2ZmV1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1402287170/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fact.on.ca%2fnewpaper%2ftt991019.htm/RK=0/RS=tg5uguQd5k9_PYUudA1Y6Gnwhtg-

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVj_Cw5RT11MAOX4XFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBzajE3bzE3BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMTAEY29sbwNiZjEEdnRpZAM-/RV=2/RE=1402287170/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fact.on.ca%2fnewpaper%2fts991109.htm/RK=0/RS=VUV5j5o7ZMdFJZm_9ysBfTrWcDc-

The women here in this case were tried on second degree murder charges. Their lawyer tried to argue manslaughter but they got the second degree conviction.

In the second link it clearly states that the jury was told that the accused didn't know Hancox was a cop.

I couldn't find any link about the judge throwing out the initial first degree charge.

But obviously it happened because they were TRIED for the second degree.

WWWTT

PS I'm not going to add anything further, that's it, if you still don't believe it, cry me a freekin river!!!!

This proves absolutely nothing about what you are trying to say, this is their lawyer saying they did not know AT their 2nd degree murder trial, which means that the argument is made after the decision was made for it to BE a 2nd degree murder trial... what it says is that they did not know he was a cop it does not mean it had any effect on the jury's decision if it was even the jury's decision as to 1st degree or 2nd degree... and I'm glad you see reason for once and abandon the ridiculous position since your "evidence" does not seem to support your argument...

[WWWTT]

I doubt there ever was a first degree charge. It doesn't warrant it for at least 2 reasons.

This proves absolutely nothing about what you are trying to say

Man you guys are freekin incredibly ignorant!!!

If I was you guys, I wouldn't reply back!

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjiXD5VTXVoASEwXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnV2cXQwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1402306584/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fact.on.ca%2fnewpaper%2fgm991110.htm/RK=0/RS=MpEu8G4P7DQalLq.daAFpBjAqm0-

WWWTT

[Signals.Cpl]

Man you guys are freekin incredibly ignorant!!!

If I was you guys, I wouldn't reply back!

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjiXD5VTXVoASEwXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnV2cXQwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1402306584/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fact.on.ca%2fnewpaper%2fgm991110.htm/RK=0/RS=MpEu8G4P7DQalLq.daAFpBjAqm0-

WWWTT

Well look at that, I am wrong and you are right... but how are we ignorant? You went through a dozen or more pieces of "evidence" to support your argument until you finally found one to support it.

[On Guard for Thee]

I doubt there ever was a first degree charge. It doesn't warrant it for at least 2 reasons.

The cop was never identified as a peace officer, and the gals where too f'ed up on coke for the murder to be planned and deliberate. No first degree. Nothing to do with ignorance. Although goind through all the hoops you did to try and get a handle on this case might suggest something.

Man you guys are freekin incredibly ignorant!!!

If I was you guys, I wouldn't reply back!

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjiXD5VTXVoASEwXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnV2cXQwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1402306584/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fact.on.ca%2fnewpaper%2fgm991110.htm/RK=0/RS=MpEu8G4P7DQalLq.daAFpBjAqm0-

WWWTT

.

[jbg]

I doubt there ever was a first degree charge. It doesn't warrant it for at least 2 reasons.

Are you saying a bloodbath is perfectly OK if the intended victims are not police officers?

[BubberMiley]

Are you saying a bloodbath is perfectly OK if the intended victims are not police officers?

Just because a crime doesn't warrant a first-degree murder charge doesn't mean it's perfectly OK. In Canada, second-degree murder is also a very serious crime.

[On Guard for Thee]

Are you saying a bloodbath is perfectly OK if the intended victims are not police officers?

Not sure just what led you to that conclusion. There seemed to be some confusion as to why this wasn't a 1st degree charge. I pointed out there are 2 reasons why. The victim was not an identified peace officer, and the perps. were apparently badly messed up on coke and this goes to their ability to be planned and deliberate in their acts.

[roy baty]

Well look at that, I am wrong and you are right... but how are we ignorant? You went through a dozen or more pieces of "evidence" to support your argument until you finally found one to support it.

Those who tend to be arrogant consider everyone else to be ignorant. Quite common actually.

[overthere]

Putting a right wing spin on things. We don't need Harper's politicians deciding prison terms for us, we have experts that evaluate prisoners before they are released. It's just like a rabid rightie to try to use one or two mistakes out of thousands to try to make reformed criminals rot in jail for life. The US experience should teach them something but they're not into learning. It's a gut reaction they have to not thinking rehabilitation works.

No, the role of elected polticians is exactly that: to establish legislation that sets out a range of Criminal Code penalties for crimes.

The criminal courts decide where each criminal, if convicted, fits within that range of penalties.

The'experts' also operate within guidfelines established by those same politicians, elected by us to do exactly that.

[Derek 2.0]

Canada's National Firearm Association decided to make a really stupid statement on these events. Congratulations on being the first to politicize this situation, while the killer is still on the loose. That's class.

https://twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/474639166857547779/photo/1

As a member of the NFA (and NRA and CSSA) I fully agree the timing and content were/are off base and inane…..and a great many members, that like myself donate lots of money to them agree……The reset and self diagnostic is well underway.

[Derek 2.0]

Didn't you say you were some kind of special forces commando or something? I would think anybody with even passing knowledge would recognize the big red shotgun shells on the stock of the gun on his back.

-k

The High Brass is a sure give-away

[Derek 2.0]

This was political the instant it happened, and I doubt gun control people will wait long to use this to their advantage.

I agree it's a stupid statement, though. Canada's gun control measures work very well.

-k

I agree........I still haven't heard if he even had his PAL yet....The RCMP has stated that he was not known to them prior...not sure if that includes the CFC.

[On Guard for Thee]

As a member of the NFA (and NRA and CSSA) I fully agree the timing and content were/are off base and inane…..and a great many members, that like myself donate lots of money to them agree……The reset and self diagnostic is well underway. \

As a member of the NFA (and NRA and CSSA) I fully agree the timing and content were/are off base and inane…..and a great many members, that like myself donate lots of money to them agree……The reset and self diagnostic is well underway.

Can you imagine an outift that seems as backward as the NRA making a stupid statement?

[jbg]

Putting a right wing spin on things. We don't need Harper's politicians deciding prison terms for us, we have experts that evaluate prisoners before they are released.

Those "experts" sure did a bang-up job with the release of Daniel St. Hubert (link to story, excerpts below):

Just before dawn on Wednesday, a man thought by the police to be Daniel St. Hubert sat on a bench in a Chelsea subway station. Two weeks before, Mr. St. Hubert had been released from a five-year term in prison for trying to strangle his mother with an electrical cord.

The man boarded a southbound 1 train, quickly hopped off and, the police say, plunged a knife into the side of a homeless man on the platform.

Three days earlier, on Sunday, the police said, Mr. St. Hubert, 27, assaulted two small children in a frenzied knife attack in the elevator of a Brooklyn housing project, killing a 6-year-old boy and leaving a 7-year old girl in critical condition.

Six days earlier, the police said, he may have fatally stabbed an 18-year-old woman on a Brooklyn street.

*******************************

And it again raised questions about the continuing struggles of the police and the courts to balance the aggressive prosecution of criminals with treatment of those who are mentally ill, as Mr. St. Hubert’s sister insisted he was. Relatives of the victims wanted to know why he was free at all.

********************************

At the same time, according to two officials who would not speak publicly, citing medical privacy, Mr. St. Hubert’s crimes would not have met the criteria for what is known as Kendra’s Law, which would have required him to receive mandatory care upon his release. It was unclear if Mr. St. Hubert received care after leaving prison.

(snip)

Edited June 10, 2014 by jbg

[eyeball]

All anyone can say about the Daniel St. Hubert's of the world is that somebody sure must be doing a bang up job at preventing the development of a comprehensive and effective medical system that can actually start dealing with and treating mental illness.

In the meantime we have national gun associations putting out press releases conflating insanity with evil aimed at people who confuse treatment with punishment.

I mean, we live in the year 2014 not 1402.

[cybercoma]

There's no evidence that this guy had a mental illness.

[eyeball]

You mean St Hubert? He was diagnosed with schizophrenia before he was released from jail, the last place he should have been right from the start.

As for Bourque, the National Rifle Association called him deranged and then equated this state of being ill with being evil.

These are examples of how and why mental illness remain conflated with criminality which plays wonderfully into the lack of action on mental illness. It's practically deliberate for Christ's sake.

Edited June 10, 2014 by eyeball

[Hydraboss]

If an insane person murders someone, it's evil.

If a sane person murders someone, it's evil.

Some crazy people deserve capital punishment too. No different than sane people.

[eyeball]

That's just plain sick.

[eyeball]

Do you punish your kids when they come home with a cold?

[Hydraboss]

No, but if they came home sick and had killed someone - very likely.

And it's not sick. I believe that ill people, regardless of the nature of the illness, should get help. Until they cross the line that is criminal. Then they need to be given the exact same punishment as every other citizen of a country, which I strongly believe should include the reinstatement of capital punishment.

I don't believe any mental illness excuses someone from the responsibility when they commit a serious crime.

[guyser]

I don't believe any mental illness excuses someone from the responsibility when they commit a serious crime.

I dont think anyone has been excused due to mental illness.

They certainly have had the benefit of mental illness when sentencing comes around, as it should be.

One not right in their mind should not be held to the same standard as one who is.

[Big Guy]

No, but if they came home sick and had killed someone - very likely.

And it's not sick. I believe that ill people, regardless of the nature of the illness, should get help. Until they cross the line that is criminal. Then they need to be given the exact same punishment as every other citizen of a country, which I strongly believe should include the reinstatement of capital punishment.

I don't believe any mental illness excuses someone from the responsibility when they commit a serious crime.

Mental Illness legal definition;

"No person is criminally responsible for an act committed or an omission made while suffering from a mental disorder that rendered the person incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission or of knowing that it was wrong. "

It appears that all rules of law seem to disagree with you. The point of a diagnosis of mental illness is the inability to understand the act and therefore no responsibility for the act.

I'll give you an example; A person is having lunch in a restaurant. When he/she is not looking, someone puts a hallucinogenic like LSD or whatever into their drink. The person drinks the solution, goes berserk and kills another patron. Is that person guilty of anything?

They are temporarily unable to understand what they are doing. Some mentally ill individuals are permanently in a state where they do not know what they are doing. They are therefore considered not responsible for their acts.

[Hydraboss]

It appears that all rules of law seem to disagree with you.

Incorrect. SOME current rules of law disagree with me.

I'll give you an example; A person is having lunch in a restaurant. When he/she is not looking, someone puts a hallucinogenic like LSD or whatever into their drink. The person drinks the solution, goes berserk and kills another patron. Is that person guilty of anything?

Yes. Murder. Maybe not pre-meditated murder, but murder.

Some mentally ill individuals are permanently in a state where they do not know what they are doing.

Then, in the case of murder, they should be in a permanent state in incarceration. Unless it was pre-meditated, in which case, capital punishment should be applied.

They are therefore considered not responsible for their acts.

Correct, but only due to current legal state. They are legally considered not responsible, but in my opinion, they absolutely are.

[Hydraboss]

I'll give you an example; A person is having lunch in a restaurant. When he/she is not looking, someone puts a hallucinogenic like LSD or whatever into their drink. The person drinks the solution, goes berserk and kills another patron. Is that person guilty of anything?

In addition, the person who apparently put the drug into another person's drink should be charged with Accessory to Murder at a minimum.