CPCFTW Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 What you're forgetting, ignoring or unaware of is that teachers work many hours outside of class time on marking, reporting, prep, coaching, running clubs, organizing proms, music events, plays, trips, etc etc etc. They work full time full year hours all crammed into the school year, then take briefcases and boxes home in the summer to prepare for the next year. I am so sick of ignorant idiots trashing teachers!! How long would you last in a class full of teenagers CP? Not long I'll bet!! . People in the private sector take plenty of work home too. Likely more than teachers given that their raises and jobs aren't guaranteed. Silly emotional comment. Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 What you're forgetting is that teachers work 175-190 days per year vs 235-250 in other jobs. So multiply the teacher salary by about 1.33 for their effective salary. Effectively they start at 60-73k and after 10 years they're making 100-125k with a defined benefit pension plan. Not bad for a BA... Let me rephrase that: excessively high for a BA. That's not really a fair comparison. Teachers work an average of 56 hours a week in Secondary when you include unpaid volunteer hours. Elementary up to 60 hours a week. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/28/primary-school-teachers-work-60-hour-week The example is from England but, even if we scale back by 10% to assume Ontario teachers aren't up to snuff with teachers in England, It's still 51 hours a week for Secondary, and 54 hours a week for elementary. And NO OVERTIME pay. My mother gets 6 weeks of vacation, and 5% vacation pay, in a basic service job. 46/1.05 = 43.8 weeks of work a year. She also gets paid overtime if she works more hours than 40 and is not allowed to work more than 40 unless under an emergency. She brings no work home. Teachers work week at 51 hours a week, standard work week of 40 (technically it's not 37.5 but, we'll use 40 to under estimate.) Teachers do not receive extra vacation pay for time off. Teachers do not get paid extra for working over 40 hours. It is also worth noting that teachers are never able to take advantage of any vacation deals, only ever peak season vacations that cost huge amounts of cash but, that won't be included. 9 weeks summer + 2 weeks christmas + 1 week march break = 12 weeks for teachers. 40/52 * 51(teacher work week)/40 (standard work week) = 51/52 equivalent standard private sector work weeks. (this was using the conservative figure of 51 instead of 56) Sure other people work overtime too but, most can claim overtime pay and be compensated for that extra work under law for a premium, hence the factor of 51/40 for teacher unpaid overtime as a regular work week. Keep in mind that teacher work week when looking into how Canadian teachers are quitting in droves because they can't handle it. The only reason these demands are sustainable is because we have a surplus of people who believe the rhetoric that it's an easy job... these people then quit. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
TimG Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Keep in mind that teacher work week when looking into how Canadian teachers are quitting in droves because they can't handle it. The only reason these demands are sustainable is because we have a surplus of people who believe the rhetoric that it's an easy job... these people then quit.A surplus is a surplus. There is no justification for raising wages when there are plenty of people qualified to do the job. Now if you want to talk about a system where pay is connected to job performance then it would be worth discussing. BTW: Teachers claim to be professionals. Well, professionals are paid to do a job - not by the hour and they all work many hours of unpaid overtime. Edited June 12, 2014 by TimG Quote
cybercoma Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 The truth is that nothing will ever be low enough for many. Does anyone have the number on median wage for a university graduate? All Sun News ever compares teachers to is the a median or average wage, which includes high school students, high school drop outs, and high school graduates. Which is a clearly dubious inclusion when talking about educated professionals. Last figures I saw had it in the $80,000 range, but those were mean salaries and not median. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Wow delusional much? That might apply to 1 in 100 people with multiple degrees and years of experience in the private sector if they work hard (years of unpaid overtime), network with the right people, and get lucky. The rest are stuck in mid-level management for most of their careers or they bounce around between middle class jobs. Mid-level management, making roughly the same as a teacher. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 People in the private sector take plenty of work home too. Likely more than teachers given that their raises and jobs aren't guaranteed. Silly emotional comment.Show me all of these people working off the clock, so I can contact the labour boards in their provinces. Quote
Moonbox Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Are people not allowed to have a vacation? Why do we always have to look at teachers who do a lot of work at home and a lot of extra curricular work during the year? Joe Public ignores those facts when slandering them. Never said they couldn't take vacation. I said that being able to travel for 3 months a year in the summer while being paid is such an amazing privilege that people have very little sympathy for teachers when they're complaining about their salaries and work load. Why do teachers get so much flack? only working 9 months and then complaining about how tough things are for them to the people who work 11+ months a year MIGHT be part of the problem. Meanwhile there are plenty of civil servants who work 37.5 hours a week who take no work home, and are not expected to coach someone else's kids after school or take on an unpaid position. Why does the public have to target teachers, all. the. time.? Because they're one of the most militant and most vocal public sector unions and, again, because they don't work nearly as hard as they say they do. Add up all of the extra-curricular, marking, parent-teacher interviews etc, and only the exceptionally diligent end up working more than 40 hours. If you want to talk about yearly average, when you count vacation most private sector workers probably work an average of 36 hours a week. With the 3 months of vacation teachers get, they end up working around ~27 hours per week on average over the year. They also complain about how tough that is. So maybe with all of the extra-curricular activities Ah yes, extra-curricular. The first things teachers in Ontario threaten to suspend when contract negotiations don't go their way. Why do people think that it's easy to teach a class of 20-32 students, with 4-13 of them having special individual education plans with specific measures that need to be changed just for each student? And then considering that overbearing parents expect you to hold their child's hand through all tasks instead of trying to teach the students to be more self-capable. Every job has its challenges. Teachers are not unique with this. What is unique to them is a 9 month work year. They can pretty much shut up beyond that point. Edited June 12, 2014 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
jacee Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Now if you want to talk about a system where pay is connected to job performance then it would be worth discussing.Can you provide examples from other professions?. Quote
Topaz Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Question....who works more days for their wages....MPP's MP's or teachers?? Quote
Salv Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Never said they couldn't take vacation. I said that being able to travel for 3 months a year in the summer while being paid is such an amazing privilege that people have very little sympathy for teachers when they're complaining about their salaries and work load. only working 9 months and then complaining about how tough things are for them to the people who work 11+ months a year MIGHT be part of the problem. Because they're one of the most militant and most vocal public sector unions and, again, because they don't work nearly as hard as they say they do. Add up all of the extra-curricular, marking, parent-teacher interviews etc, and only the exceptionally diligent end up working more than 40 hours. If you want to talk about yearly average, when you count vacation most private sector workers probably work an average of 36 hours a week. With the 3 months of vacation teachers get, they end up working around ~27 hours per week on average over the year. They also complain about how tough that is. Ah yes, extra-curricular. The first things teachers in Ontario threaten to suspend when contract negotiations don't go their way. Every job has its challenges. Teachers are not unique with this. What is unique to them is a 9 month work year. They can pretty much shut up beyond that point. The concept of working nine months versus eleven months should be irrelevant because the teachers I know (and my wife is a teacher - grade seven and eight) work 10+ hours a day. Throughout this school year my wife works from 9:00 a.m to 4:00 p.m, comes home, eats dinner, and then works for another three or four hours on average. Typically we watch a show at night or sit in our backyard to have a coffee - that's the amount of free-time she has. Sometimes it's only one or two extra hours - sometimes she is up past 11:00 p.m finishing up work. She usually spends four - six hours on the weekend doing marking and coming up with new lesson plans for the kids - so I can easily say she puts in ~60 hours a week or more. So yes, she only works for nine months, but that nine months is considerably more work and more stress than any 9-5 job I know. Do you personally know any teachers? I speak from experience (I also work for the school board) - do you? What exactly is your background that gives you any sort of indication of how hard teachers work? From my perspective, teachers are one of the biggest scapegoats in the province - people think teaching is easy and they get a three month vacation. Quote
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Is 70-90k per year a lot of money for an educated professional nearing the end of their career? Depends on the profession, and depends on the need for the education. Tons of people get university degrees. How many of them make that much? Teachers are partly babysitters, and partly rote-speakers, following a learning plan they're not really allowed to vary from, and into which they have little input. They follow the lesson plan, follow the marking plan, and thats about it. Oh, yes, and they deal with kids all day. That's the only challenge, but is dealing with kids something so unique they ought to get a very high salary? Personally, I don't see why most school teachers even need a university degree. My experience is that good teachers are those with the knack, with that particular personality and communications skills that enable them to put across their message in a variety of ways and make it interesting while doing so. I don't think you learn that. I think you have it or you don't. Most of the teachers I had in life didn't have it. Most of the teachers I have met as an adult don't have it. My cousin is a teacher (doesn't everyone have at least one in the family?). He's an unimaginative sort, kind of shallow and selfish. I can't say if his students like him or if they do well. Others I've met have been similar, as I said, people who don't know what to do with themselves so go into teaching. There are too many of them, and they can't be fired. Which is another issue. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 Now I don't know what they do in other places, but I think logically a person with a first class or honours undergrad plus grad school (master's or doctorate), plus teacher training (BEd) and additional academic credentials such as specialist training, should be making a pretty good salary. Suppose the company that cuts my grass says from now on their employees must have grad school plus three years of special training. Should I now pay them ten times more? Except for a very few higher level high school courses in, for example, science and math, teachers don't really need university. It's just not that complex a job. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 That's not true at all. Someone with that amount of education could be making a lot more in the private sector doing consulting or research. Riiight, which is why we have so many unemployed teachers, and they have to travel to Korea to get a job. You'd think they'd all be snapped up by consulting firms. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Bob Macadoo Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 My cousin is a teacher (doesn't everyone have at least one in the family?). He's an unimaginative sort, kind of shallow and selfish. I can't say if his students like him or if they do well. Others I've met have been similar... This I find is the common denominator among _____- haters......."I know someone who _______s. He's a real douche, must be a requirement for the job. They make too much....fire them all....anyone can do that douche's job." Quote
Argus Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 This I find is the common denominator among _____- haters......."I know someone who _______s. He's a real douche, must be a requirement for the job. They make too much....fire them all....anyone can do that douche's job." I don't hate teachers. Your simplistic black and white view of the world could use a little colour. I simply believe that the job is not as complex as they'd like people to believe, does not require the education they've taken it upon themselves to demand, and should not command the renumeration it does. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Boges Posted June 13, 2014 Author Report Posted June 13, 2014 Looks like a majority for the Liberals. WOW. Quote
Moonbox Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 The concept of working nine months versus eleven months should be irrelevant because the teachers I know (and my wife is a teacher - grade seven and eight) work 10+ hours a day. Throughout this school year my wife works from 9:00 a.m to 4:00 p.m, comes home, eats dinner, and then works for another three or four hours on average. I got a really good laugh out of that. *wipes eyes* Really...thanks for that. That's too funny. On average...right... Man...lol. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
WWWTT Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 Thanks for handing the liberals a majority Hudack! The pc has hit an all time low! Time to go Hudack! Don't forget to bring your stupid ideas, stupid numbers and stupid fairy tails with you, you bunch of good for nothing losers! Nobody wants to listen to the progressive conservatives anymore. Maybe Hudack should have promised the sun and the moon! Good call Horwath!!!! How's that wooden stake in the heart feelin now Hudack! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Boges Posted June 13, 2014 Author Report Posted June 13, 2014 Horvath is the one that ultimately decided to go to the polls. Quote
Salv Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 I got a really good laugh out of that. *wipes eyes* Really...thanks for that. That's too funny. On average...right... Man...lol. Realistically look at a possible scenario. You're qualified to teach grades four through twelve - in September you get a phone call saying that a position has opened and you're hired - you start in a week - you teach grade seven and eight. You usually teach grade four - but now you're teaching a grade seven and eight curriculum. You basically have to create each weeks lesson plan week to week - the curriculum just tells you what the kids have to know, not how to teach them, or what worksheets to use (which you have to create yourself). So if you're in this position, how do you think it's unrealistic or an exaggeration to be working additional hours every night to create tomorrows lesson plan? You made a post earlier that seemed serious so I assumed you were open to discussing this. Quote
WWWTT Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 Horvath is the one that ultimately decided to go to the polls. BS BUDDY!!! Hudack voted AGAINST THE LIBERAL BUDGET ASWELL!!!! In fact, MORE pc mpp's voted AGAINST the liberal budget than NDP mpp's! Own it baby! You're just crying about the worst pc turnout in Ontario history! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Moonbox Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 Your criticism is quite clearly that teachers' pay is "far beyond average," as though average was somehow the benchmark for comparison, although the "average" person doesn't have nearly as much education as a teacher who is earning $70k+ So, what? Should I have said far, far beyond average? Or maybe far far ever-so-much-further-extra-way-more beyond average? Maybe you would have preferred hyperbole and exaggeration instead of level-headed language I used. Let me know. Well, the average teaching salary across Canada is roughly $70,000 and we're talking mean salary which is not as informative in this discussion as median salary. The median teacher salary in Canada is about $50,000. The median teacher salary is completely useless for the discussion. I don't know how you could even suggest otherwise. $50,000 is almost an entry-level teacher's salary, so that means that there are a lot of new teachers in the workforce.For the average to be $70,000 (with the 50% making $50,000 or below), that means that the majority of the other 50% of teachers are making over $90,000/year. That's basic math. Try it out. You're saying someone with multiple degrees and years of post-secondary education can't earn on average $50,000 in the private sector? Nope. That's another good straw man. I'm saying that the vast vast vast extra vast (better?) majority of private sector workers (educated even) can't make $90,000/year working 9 months a year with a golden benefit package and unmatched job security. They don't even come close. So what would you say is fair? In 2010 the median personal income was just about $30,000. So teachers should make more than $30,000, but less than $50,000. What do you suggest is fair for an educated professional that's responsible for teaching and caring for people's kids? That whole paragraph is just garbage man. You're smarter than that. First, median income is a worthless statistic for this discussion and one that I never even made mention of. Second, even starting teachers compensation packages are worth more than $50,000/year considering they work 9 months and have peerless job security and excellent benefits. This ignores all of the ones making $90,000+ with benefits on top. Third, people need to stop acting like one year of teacher's college (hilariously easy to gain admittance to and even more hilarious to complete) is an impressive academic achievement, along with the occasional continuing education upgrades. Fourth, there are so many people graduating from teacher's college and so many people that want to be teachers, that we could be paying a lot less money to more enthusiastic and probably better overall teachers anyways. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Boges Posted June 13, 2014 Author Report Posted June 13, 2014 The PCs wanted an election 2 years ago. Clearly the PCs didn't appeal to anyone. But the NDP didn't either. No point in fighting now. The people have spoken. Let's just hope Wynne doesn't exponentially add to the cost of living of average people. That's something both side were worried about Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 13, 2014 Report Posted June 13, 2014 The PCs wanted an election 2 years ago. Clearly the PCs didn't appeal to anyone. But the NDP didn't either. No point in fighting now. The people have spoken. Let's just hope Wynne doesn't exponentially add to the cost of living of average people. That's something both side were worried about She won because she didn't campaign on reality. Austerity is coming. The Liberals can't backtrack on the trap budget set for the NDP. But, just watch what happens in the next one... For example, I keep noticing that education funding seems to drop in their future projections. Look for it next time you look at their budget projections. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Boges Posted June 13, 2014 Author Report Posted June 13, 2014 That's what I'm hearing too MCC. Cuts are going to happen. I guess Ontario just wants to be lied to about it. Quote
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