Reporting temporary foreign worker program abuse

[TimG]

Ok, so you're saying that Canada needs TFWs to produce low-cost fast food because Canada is competing in the global tourism market.

You are beating up on your own strawmen. I am arguing that TFWs are necessary and simply raising wages is not an option for many businesses that do use TFWs. I have never said that fast food restaurants were one of those businesses.

If this idea of dicking around with the free market to create benefits to the larger economy has any merit, then why don't we start with the fuel industry first, and pick on low-skill workers later?

First, there is no free market in labour. Everyone with a job that can only be done locally is heavily protected by laws that restrict immigration. So please do not pretend you are defending the free market.

Second, there are good reasons for restricting the flow of labour and I am not advocating that. What I am advocating is there should be TFWs under certain conditions. i.e. the business will likely be forced to shutdown because it can't pay what is necessary to get local workers because a functioning business adds more value than no business at all.

Third, determining when the viability of the business is at stake is not easy to do and not every business today meets that criteria. While it is easy to beat up on your fast food strawman you are are completely missing the point by focusing on that one example.

Edited May 12, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Hide your goalposts. The moving company is here.

[TimG]

Nonsense. You keep bringing up agricultural workers even though no one is really complaining about bringing in agricultural workers.

Which is my point. The TFW program is necessary but that does not mean no company is abusing the program today. I am arguing that the program needs better incentives to weed out the abusers.

[monty16]

Some are for cameras in the workplace and in people's bedrooms and some are opposed to both. I'm going to be against both and I hope others can choose their sides.

[Peter F]

Hide your goalposts. The moving company is here.

[TimG]

Hide your goalposts. The moving company is here.

Once again, you don't read what I write and instead make up imaginary crap based on your prejudices. Edited May 12, 2014 by TimG

[GostHacked]

Which is my point. The TFW program is necessary but that does not mean no company is abusing the program today. I am arguing that the program needs better incentives to weed out the abusers.

What about the government abusing it's own program? How do you weed that out?

[kimmy]

You are beating up on your own strawmen. I am arguing that TFWs are necessary and simply raising wages is not an option for many businesses that do use TFWs. I have never said that fast food restaurants were one of those businesses.

Did you not just argue that fast food restaurants need cheap labour because they're competing in a global market for tourism?

First, there is no free market in labour. Everyone with a job that can only be done locally is heavily protected by laws that restrict immigration. So please do not pretend you are defending the free market.

Unlike some on this forum, I've never portrayed myself as a champion of the free market. I'm not for dogma, I'm for pragma. I keep bringing up how the free market is supposed to work because some of the Free Market Heroes, ranging from Shady all the way up to the Conservative government, seem to want to ignore free market principles when it's not to the benefit of employers. I think this topic has really illustrated that "pro free market" and "pro business" are not the same thing.

Second, there are good reasons for restricting the flow of labour and I am not advocating that. What I am advocating is there should be TFWs under certain conditions. i.e. the business will likely be forced to shutdown because it can't pay what is necessary to get local workers because a functioning business adds more value than no business at all.

I am skeptical. If some of these businesses shut down because they can't get TFWs anymore, that probably means there is a market glut of that kind of business. Maybe we don't need a McDonalds or a Tim's on every corner. Maybe instead of encouraging entrepreneurs to build more McDonalds and Tims franchise locations by subsidizing their labor costs, we should ween them from that teat and have market forces direct their capital into some venture that could be of greater benefit to the entire economy.

To me it sounds like (to borrow a Free Market Hero catch-phrase) some "creative destruction" is needed in this industry. (But the Free Market Heroes are only in favor of "creative destruction" when it's union jobs that are getting wiped out.)

Third, determining when the viability of the business is at stake is not easy to do and not every business today meets that criteria. While it is easy to beat up on your fast food strawman you are are completely missing the point by focusing on that one example.

I'm focused on that one example because that has been the issue of contention. The statistics show that a large percentage of the TFWs are in fast food, and that's where Mr Kenney's temporary moratorium has been implemented, and that's where the businesses are crying that they will die without TFWs. So of course that's the issue.

I have no issue at all with an employer being able to look outside the country to bring in a skilled worker to fill a real shortage. I've got a big issue with the TFW program being used to bring in cheap labor en masse.

-k

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not for dogma, I'm for pragma.

Nice !

If some of these businesses shut down because they can't get TFWs anymore, that probably means there is a market glut of that kind of business.

I think a 'glut' would look more like too much supply and not enough demand in that area. This isn't the case, clearly.

[TimG]

Did you not just argue that fast food restaurants need cheap labour because they're competing in a global market for tourism?

Ah no. I thought I chose my words carefully so as to not imply that. I was referring to the cases where hotels use TFWs.

I think this topic has really illustrated that "pro free market" and "pro business" are not the same thing.

Businesses, like people, are self centered and will support whatever benefits them personally. They have no "ideology". For example, the biggest beneficiaries of government regulation are the large established companies that can afford the compliance costs because the compliance become a barrier that keeps out competition.

I am skeptical. If some of these businesses shut down because they can't get TFWs anymore, that probably means there is a market glut of that kind of business.

I am only taking about businesses which face competition in a global market. I don't really care if fast food restaurants are shutdown. I do care if good farmland is left fallow because the farmer can't find people to harvest the product.

I have no issue at all with an employer being able to look outside the country to bring in a skilled worker to fill a real shortage. I've got a big issue with the TFW program being used to bring in cheap labor en masse.

I have two issues with TFWs:

1) Phony credentialism - where employers set unrealistic requirements for job skills in order to minimize training costs and rationalize imports (the Chinese language requirements for miners in BC really got me steamed).

2) Abuse of vulnerable employees - where employers use the status of TFWs to get away with workplace practices that would not be tolerated by Canadians.

Edited May 12, 2014 by TimG

[overthere]

I'm quite sure that some employers, as you say, really do need employees. I bet they need workers really really bad.

You are suggesting that government then step in and solve their problem. Sorta like the Employers provide an essential service.

Except we're talking about mostly restraunts and stuff like that.

I say boot up the wages to attract the workers or set up shop somewhere else or close the place down.

No, I'm not suggesting anything of the sort with government stepping in.

The employers have to recruit, pay for the workers to fly from their homes and back, and pay them while they are here.

The other part of otherthere's post that struck me: the 1% vacancy rate. Ok, so the rental housing market is so tight that workers can't come to town to fill these jobs? Wellll, first off, at minimum wage nobody's going to come to town for those jobs anyway. Second, if there's no rental housing available, where are the temporary workers going to stay?

In many cases here, employers provide rental accomodation for the foreign workers. There is no other choice. Skilled workers often live in camps, because much of the skilled industrial work is where the resources are, obviously .

You're not really paying attention though, because almost nobody here pays minimum wage. The competition for labour is pretty fierce. Teh unemployment rate is under 5% , which is too low.

Inflation follows.

[Icebound]

A great quote to describe a Conservative Minister:

"Minister Kenny is not known to be a union sympathizer, but some of his recent language would make you wonder" - Dan Kelly, head of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.... from the Toronto Star, Saturday May 17,

[kimmy]

Here's that article:

“Minister Kenney is not known to be a union sympathizer, but some of his recent language would make you wonder,” Dan Kelly, head of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, said in an interview Friday.

Kenney has called upon businesses, particularly fast-food restaurants, to raise wages if they can’t find Canadian labour in their communities.

The latest proposals floated by his department have struck some in the business community as yet another startling example of traditionally business-friendly Conservatives interfering in how corporations choose to do business.

The wage floor idea essentially amounts to banning major sectors of the economy from hiring temporary foreign workers, including those in regions with labour shortages, Kelly charges.

“It would basically cut out large chunks of the labour force. Retail, hospitality, the service sector, the restaurant sector — these are Canada’s largest employers and the government appears to be tiering the program so that it’s only available to very highly skilled occupational categories.”

He added that employers already have to pay temporary foreign workers above minimum wage in many communities.

If there's *really* a shortage of workers in certain areas, then Mr Kelly's buddies shouldn't be harmed by having to pay higher wages. The truth is that it's not simply about continued access to workers, it's about continued access to workers at artificially low wages.

Here's a different article in which both Minister Kenney and Prime Minister Harper say they're concerned that foreign workers have become part of the business model in certain industries:

“I do not think this is generally the case of highly skilled and highly paid international professionals whose movement we clearly have an interest in facilitating,” Kenney said.

“But we are taking a close look at the extent to which we’ve allowed large numbers of low-skilled workers to become, in some cases, a business model.”

...

“The reality is this: the government has been progressively tightening the program to ensure that it is not used as a business model and that Canadians always have first crack at jobs,” said Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

Obviously the government's "progressive" work in this regard has been pretty lacking and Harper is just reading some talking points, because "Canadians always have first crack at jobs" has been boilerplate language in every government statement about the TFW program. Nonetheless it's interesting that the government is now acknowledging the business model aspect of this.

Clearly the jig is up on that little game. The politicians now recognize that the campaign contributions from a few restauranteurs are not worth the political ass-kicking they're taking over this issue.

-k

[GostHacked]

What about the government abusing it's own program? How do you weed that out?

Hey TimG, waiting for an answer on this one if you can.

[cybercoma]

It's nice that they're going to pretend to address this but people told Harper's Conservatives that their policies were going to create a problem a long time ago. They're only reacting now because it' has blown up near an election. If this came to light 3 years ago, they wouldn't be doing a damn thing.

[kimmy]

It's nice that they're going to pretend to address this but people told Harper's Conservatives that their policies were going to create a problem a long time ago. They're only reacting now because it' has blown up near an election. If this came to light 3 years ago, they wouldn't be doing a damn thing.

This was actually reported over a year ago when the RBC thing blew up, but it was overlooked at the time. Here's an article from April 12, 2013:

Mark Thompson, professor emeritus at UBC's Sauder School of Business, says the story is much bigger than almost four dozen RBC workers, and it's far from over.

"I think there's going to be more examples of temporary foreign workers doing things that most people in the public wonder about."

Thompson says there are over 300,000 temporary foreign workers in Canada in jobs that aren't temporary in restaurants, in health care, and in many other fields.

"Normally, if you have a shortage of people, the response is wages go up... If you can get foreign workers for the prevailing rate where the market doesn't clear, then you never have to raise the wages for the Canadians," he said.

So... it wasn't a secret, but nobody was talking about it until last month.

-k

[cybercoma]

Exactly. It has been going on for a long time and the Conservatives can't possibly say they didn't know about it. They knew. They're only doing something about it now because there's an election within a year and it was getting too big to ignore.

[GostHacked]

Exactly. It has been going on for a long time and the Conservatives can't possibly say they didn't know about it. They knew. They're only doing something about it now because there's an election within a year and it was getting too big to ignore.

These politicians sure like to play dumb when it is convenient.

[kimmy]

So the reforms to the TFW program were announced on Friday. The TFW stream for low-skill workers will be phased out gradually by 2016.

Kenney announced Friday, just as Parliament went on summer recess, that employers will be barred from hiring temporary foreign workers in regions where the unemployment rate is above six per cent.

...

The government would also put a 10 per cent cap on the number of low-wage temporary foreign workers employers can hire per work site by 2016. ... That cap will be gradually phased in, starting at 30 per cent effective immediately, then reduced to 20 per cent on July 1, 2015, and 10 per cent a year later in 2016.

...

Other reforms to the program include:

• An increase in the number of inspections: one in four employers will be inspected each year. The government says it will hire approximately 20 more inspectors, bringing the number to about 60.
• An increase from $275 to $1,000 in the application fee employers must pay per worker requested, effective immediately.
• Fines of up to $100,000 for employers who abuse the program, starting in fall.
• Additional funding for the Canada Border Services Agency so it can pursue more criminal investigations.
• Posting the names of employers who receive permission to hire foreign workers.
• Making public the number of positions approved through the program on a quarterly basis.
• Reducing the amount of time a temporary foreign worker can be employed in Canada, to two years from four.

All of this sounds reasonable to me.

-k

[Bob Macadoo]

So the reforms to the TFW program were announced on Friday. The TFW stream for low-skill workers will be phased out gradually by 2016.

All of this sounds reasonable to me.

-k

Yes I was impressed by Kenney's rhetoric/sabre rattling time at the podium. He sounded sincere, he does that well. The oil sands cartel must've been worried that the whole TFW program was going to implode to concede on so many items.

[Argus]

Yes I was impressed by Kenney's rhetoric/sabre rattling time at the podium. He sounded sincere, he does that well. The oil sands cartel must've been worried that the whole TFW program was going to implode to concede on so many items.

The continued cliche that the conservatives only respond to 'big business', or in this case 'big oil' was never more than nonsense. Even a cursory review of political donations prior to them being so deeply restricted by Chretien showed the great mass of large scale donations from the corporate sector went to the Liberal party. The Conservatives, in contrast, always got their money through numerous very small contributions from ordinary Canadians. That's one of the reasons they have been so delighted to continue Chretien's program and restrict large donations. Currently, only individuals can xontribute money, and only to a maximum of $1100. I don't think the Tories are going to be jumping through hoops for that.

[Bob Macadoo]

The continued cliche that the conservatives only respond to 'big business', or in this case 'big oil' was never more than nonsense. (....) I don't think the Tories are going to be jumping through hoops for that.

So you think the PMO came up with this in a vacuum? Or are they clairvoyent?

As to your other assertion, just like Manley, Strahl, Tobin, Prentice, etc. the big money comes later....so long as you've done good bidding.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[Argus]

So you think the PMO came up with this in a vacuum? Or are they clairvoyent?

As to your other assertion, just like Manley, Strahl, Tobin, Prentice, etc. the big money comes later....so long as you've done good bidding.

Any government takes the expressed needs of the business community seriously. The issue here, I think, is that to business, the more cheap labour the better. Combine that with the goernment's incompetence at gathering real information about labour shortages and you get a situation where they're just taking the word of business that they're desperate for employees they can't get.