Natural gas rates

[Topaz]

Enbridge and Union Gas are asking for increases, 40% yearly for Enbridge and Union-28% and I, like many consumers don't think they should because of poor planning on their part. When the stock market went down and the insurance companies lost money, they increased insurance premiums, so where does the consumer go when they run out of money from all the increases from property taxes, income taxes, insurance, water ,hydro, sewage, cell phones, line phones, food....either bankrupt or deep in debt. I check who was the directors of the OEB, the president is the CEO of Union Gas and another director is Enbridge...16 directors, 14 CEO connect to hydro and gas and two women, lawyer and financial expert. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/enbridge-seeks-40-natural-gas-price-increase-1.2572366

[Boges]

Natural Gas is at historic low prices. Even a 40% increase isn't something that should send people into foreclosure. They modify the price every 3 months so in theory the price could go back down going into next winter. Plus who uses a lot of Gas after April?

It's the increase in Electricity that should be worrisome to people as those increases have no end insight thanks to the idiotic Ontario Liberals and their Green Energy policy.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Boges

[GostHacked]

At least all that smart technology is to help us reduce our bills. But then the rates just get jacked up, so there is no savings. So why the need for smart technology?

[Boges]

At least all that smart technology is to help us reduce our bills. But then the rates just get jacked up, so there is no savings. So why the need for smart technology?

Smart Technology doesn't apply with gas, as far as I know. They still pay a guy to walk up to a meter and read it. Which is difficult with all the snow this winter.

The smart technology or smart meters, for electricity, accurately gauges the usage. The problem is, when you can accurately measure how people use their hydro, you can charge people more during peak periods. Which they most certainly do.

The smart meter isn't the problem through, it's the continually increasing price of hydro itself.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Boges

[GostHacked]

Smart Technology doesn't apply with gas, as far as I know. They still pay a guy to walk up to a meter and read it. Which is difficult with all the snow this winter.

The smart meter isn't the problem through, it's the continually increasing price of hydro itself.

Yes but the caveat was that the smart meter would help you save money. The smart technologies main stated goal is to help you save money on your electricity usage.

http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/en/smart-meters-and-tou-prices/#.UycgHIXemCo

Ontario has introduced smart meters — along with a “time-of-use” electricity price structure — to help you manage your electricity costs, while helping Ontario to build a more efficient, more environmentally sound electricity system. Smart meters have been installed in residences and small businesses across Ontario.

What is a smart meter?

A smart meter electronically tracks how much electricity a home or small business uses and when it is used. With that information, electricity prices can vary at different times of the day, encouraging you to think more about how and when you use electricity. This detailed information appears on your electricity bill to help you manage your electricity costs.

So now that people are saving money, rates need to be jacked because the energy company is not making enough money. The smart meter uses a lot more power than your traditional electric meter.

So much for saving.

[Boges]

Yes but the caveat was that the smart meter would help you save money. The smart technologies main stated goal is to help you save money on your electricity usage.http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/en/smart-meters-and-tou-prices/#.UycgHIXemCoSo now that people are saving money, rates need to be jacked because the energy company is not making enough money. The smart meter uses a lot more power than your traditional electric meter.So much for saving.

It's not the tech's fault that Ontario has an idiotic energy policy.

In theory you can save money by doing stuff like dishwashing and laundry at off-peak times because it's about half the price as on-peak. But that doesn't work well when the prices keep going up.

Not to ball-bust but smart tech has nothing to do with the OP. There are plenty of threads bitching about Ontario's energy policy.

[GostHacked]

It's not the tech's fault that Ontario has an idiotic energy policy.

In theory you can save money by doing stuff like dishwashing and laundry at off-peak times because it's about half the price as on-peak. But that doesn't work well when the prices keep going up.

Not to ball-bust but smart tech has nothing to do with the OP. There are plenty of threads bitching about Ontario's energy policy.

The smart technology is part of their energy policy. It is directly connected to the price hike. The smartmeters were to save people money. Now that that is cutting into the energy company's profits, the rates are increased. They are directly connected.

So in the end you won't be saving a damn thing. So what was the point of implementing a mutlimillion dollar project of replacing traditional meters with smart meters that won't actually save money? The money saved on not having to pay a person to come out to read the meter anymore should more than offset the need to increase electricity rates simply because they pushed technology on us that is to help us save money.

The smart meters are part of the problem and how they got widespread use is also part of the problem and part of the policy. They are all connected.

[Boges]

Of course the province isn't thinking about saving anyone anything. The tech won't save people money, but if you ignore the Time-of-Use guidelines you'll see an even further hike to your rate. If you do laundry during a weekday, you're daft.

You need to talk about the Green Energy Act if you want to understand why hydro prices have skyrocketed. The smart meters can actually be useful understanding when you use hydro most and how much your base rate is. (just using your fridge and stuff that's always plugged in) But the province has already pledged to raise the price of hydro exponentially in the coming year, so perhaps people should stop supporting them.

But the OP is about a proposed 40% increase in the price of Natural gas. Has nothing to do with smart tech as Natural Gas is still gauged by a meter read.

The story about Natural Gas is that the companies want to hike the rate because their stockpiles have been depleted because of this horrific winter.

[GostHacked]

Of course the province isn't thinking about saving anyone anything. The tech won't save people money, but if you ignore the Time-of-Use guidelines you'll see an even further hike to your rate. If you do laundry during a weekday, you're daft.

There should not be such a fluctuation in price depending on time of day. I do laundry when I want. I live in an apartment so the price for me is the same either way.

I understand smart meters are not on natural gas lines .. yet, but it's coming, and you'll be paying out the ass for that 'upgrade' too. Be silly to think you could heat your home on a weekday.

The story about Natural Gas is that the companies want to hike the rate because their stockpiles have been depleted because of this horrific winter.

So where is that natural gas boom via fracking we are told about?

[Boges]

There should not be such a fluctuation in price depending on time of day. I do laundry when I want. I live in an apartment so the price for me is the same either way.

The reasoning is that using hydro during onpeak times puts a strain on the system.

I understand smart meters are not on natural gas lines .. yet, but it's coming, and you'll be paying out the ass for that 'upgrade' too. Be silly to think you could heat your home on a weekday.

I keep my home cool during the day usually, while at work anyway. But I hope that never happens. Haven't even heard anyone purpose it. Many heat there home using electricity.

So where is that natural gas boom via fracking we are told about?

Natural gas is at historic lows because of franking. Which is why I think this modest increase is no big deal.

[TimG]

Enbridge and Union Gas are asking for increases, 40% yearly for Enbridge and Union-28% and I, like many consumers don't think they should because of poor planning on their part.

It is not clear why you think "poor planning" is to blame? If you want cheap gas then you should actively support fracking and gas pipelines. Edited March 17, 2014 by TimG

[Bob Macadoo]

It is not clear why you think "poor planning" is to blame? If you want cheap gas then you should actively support fracking and gas pipelines.

That has little to do with it. Enbridge's bulk purchase ran out and they had to spot market buy to make up the high demand. It was insufficient planning for the public but hardly "poor" for a private enterprise. The high spot price is due to the unexpected demand from the southern states. Additional fracking shouldn't be the knee-jerk reaction. The additional gas cost should be distributed to the consumer unless you have a fixed price contract......otherwise thats "poor" planning on your part not theirs.

[Boges]

Ontario's inept Energy Minister has said an increased price of Natural Gas will translate to higher hydro rates because many power plants in the province are Natural Gas powered now.

As if they ever needed an excuse, they would have raised the price anyway heading into spring.

[Topaz]

Consumers can't win on those smart meters. On one of my bills I used more low and medium time and least peek and my bill was still high and most over half the cost from delivery or transportation.

[TimG]

The additional gas cost should be distributed to the consumer unless you have a fixed price contract......otherwise thats "poor" planning on your part not theirs.

If you want stable prices you have to pay more to cover the risks that people take with the market. If you want lower average prices you accept a certain amount of volatility. The gas companies may not have anticipated the spike in gas prices this winter but betting that the long term trend was down was reasonable thing to do given then dynamics of the north american market. The regulators job is to ensure the that companies can make a reasonable profit. They do not pass judgement on hedging strategies - only one whether the costs were incurred. If the costs were incurred when averaged out over a longer period then the consumer has to pay. Edited March 19, 2014 by TimG

[Bob Macadoo]

If you want stable prices you have to pay more to cover the risks that people take with the market. If you want lower average prices you accept a certain amount of volatility. The gas companies may not have anticipated the spike in gas prices this winter but betting that the long term trend was down was reasonable thing to do given then dynamics of the north american market. The regulators job is to ensure the that companies can make a reasonable profit. They do not pass judgement on hedging strategies - only one whether the costs were incurred. If the costs were incurred when averaged out over a longer period then the consumer has to pay.

100% Agree. Regulators aren't in the business of worrying about Grandma eating catfood, thats for the gov't to subsidize if decided.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[kimmy]

There should not be such a fluctuation in price depending on time of day. I do laundry when I want. I live in an apartment so the price for me is the same either way.

It is important to understand that the demand for electricity is not steady throughout the day. There are peak times when the power company has little electricity to spare, and off times when the power company has all kinds of capacity that it isn't using.

They are stretched to the limit at 6pm each day, while during the middle of the night, demand for electricity drops to very low levels. It is important to get people to use less electricity during the peak times and move non-essential stuff to the off times.

If everybody insists on cooking their supper and doing their laundry and running their air-conditioning and charging their electric car at 6pm, then the power company won't have enough electricity for everybody. There will be brown-outs. They will have to build a new generating station. It will cost a lot of money.

But if people decide that they can cook their supper and run their air conditioning at 6pm, and do their laundry at 10pm, and charge their electric car from midnight to 4am, then they don't have to build a new generating station. There will be lots of spare electricity.

How to do that? Make electricity expensive at 6pm, and cheap between midnight and 4am. Then people will say "Holy crap! It's too expensive to charge my electric car and do my laundry at 6pm! If I do the laundry before bed, and charge my electric car overnight, it will save me a bunch of money." People will try to save money by using less electricity during peak hours when it is expensive, and using more electricity during off-peak hours.

-k

[Shady]

This is another warning to not let environmental extremists set our energy policy as to reduce our production of oil and natural gas. If you think prices are bad now, just wait if they get their way and do away with fossil fuels. Many cold winters or sky high energy bills in the future. Stand up to climate thumpers!

[Boges]

This is another warning to not let environmental extremists set our energy policy as to reduce our production of oil and natural gas. If you think prices are bad now, just wait if they get their way and do away with fossil fuels. Many cold winters or sky high energy bills in the future. Stand up to climate thumpers!

Again, Natural Gas prices have been historically low, a hike was inevitable.

I guess one thing we can take from this, is this "climate change" thing isn't always going to make winters warmer.

[overthere]

At least all that smart technology is to help us reduce our bills. But then the rates just get jacked up, so there is no savings. So why the need for smart technology?

I just don't get how anybody could believe the baloney that smart meters were ever intended to save consumers money.

They are specifically intended to increase revenue for generating utiltiies with a very minimum of investment and a short payback period. It doesn't matter if the rates get jacked up or stay the same, the profit will go up because they can manipulate time of day demand charges to guarantee revenue. They also know people don't understand the effect of a brief demand spike.

It's a shame consumers are unaware of the depth of this con, since in reality many people cannot change family life schedules to have any hope at energy savings. No, you can't use the dryer or make toast at 3 AM when it is cheapest.

[Topaz]

As I said before, at least for me, I use less high peek times and I still have a high hydro bill but most of the bill is in delivery or transportation cost, which at times, is higher than hydro used, consumers can't win ever.

[overthere]

How to do that? Make electricity expensive at 6pm, and cheap between midnight and 4am. Then people will say "Holy crap! It's too expensive to charge my electric car and do my laundry at 6pm! If I do the laundry before bed, and charge my electric car overnight, it will save me a bunch of money." People will try to save money by using less electricity during peak hours when it is expensive, and using more electricity during off-peak hours.

Ah, no. You have it backwards.

The innovation of having demand charges is not new at all, it is only new to residential consumers. It's not about reducing consumption. nobody in the generating , transmission or distribution sectors of the power industry give a shit about that because their profits are not dependent solely on consumption.

What it is about is profitability of all three sectors. Residential demand meters provide a massive new revenue stream opportunity for them. If everybody starts running their dryers at 10 PM, they can simply shift the peak or near peak hours to span..... 11PM.

What will be the most interesting development n the near future will be self generation of power and net metering. Both have increased and represent a growing threat to the bottom line of large scale generators and their grids. Small scale solar, wind and MicroCHP are all ways for consumers to actually personally address their costs for both consumption and demand charges. If the best we can do is to beleive the illusion that making our toast in the middle of the night matters at all, nothing will change and electric costs will continue to be out of our control.

[GostHacked]

It is important to understand that the demand for electricity is not steady throughout the day. There are peak times when the power company has little electricity to spare, and off times when the power company has all kinds of capacity that it isn't using.

This is true. However we can go back a few years and recall Enron in California and their deliberate brown outs which allowed them to cry victim and was able to increase rates and put the boots to the population who was sweating during a very warm summer.

They are stretched to the limit at 6pm each day, while during the middle of the night, demand for electricity drops to very low levels. It is important to get people to use less electricity during the peak times and move non-essential stuff to the off times.

We live in a technologically driven world that demands electricity. Everything needs power.

One thing that I have seen which is really an unnecessary trend, is the use of electronic dispensers. Many bathrooms now, have a sensor on the toilet, under the tap, or the paper towel dispenser. These things are on 24hrs a day too. So they are constantly draining power. So we can take a good strain off the grid by not having every little device use power.

If everybody insists on cooking their supper and doing their laundry and running their air-conditioning and charging their electric car at 6pm, then the power company won't have enough electricity for everybody. There will be brown-outs. They will have to build a new generating station. It will cost a lot of money.

You mean slave away at work all day (corps are big power users) only to come home at 6 and NOT be able to enjoy a hot meal and possibly a hot shower? And the dent that electric cars have on the grid currently is nothing compared to the power consumption needed to power gas pumps to fill millions of cars each and every day with petrol.

And we don't need a new generating station if we simply refrained from having every device need power.

How to do that? Make electricity expensive at 6pm, and cheap between midnight and 4am. Then people will say "Holy crap! It's too expensive to charge my electric car and do my laundry at 6pm! If I do the laundry before bed, and charge my electric car overnight, it will save me a bunch of money." People will try to save money by using less electricity during peak hours when it is expensive, and using more electricity during off-peak hours.

-k

Do laundry before bed? How about relax before bed? Get a good nights sleep. But if you make it the cheapest during the hours when normally people are SLEEPING will actually affect people on tight budgets. Do they really need to wreck their whole life just to save a couple bucks?

The power companies are milking you dry. And when people's habits change and create a different off time peak, then you will see the companies adjust their rates again in order to max out their profits. Knowing you have no other choice.

[Topaz]

A local radio program had a call-in about this and I laughed when this one guy said he had the smart meters for two years and it got to be so stressful trying to keep the hydro down, that he said he gave up and went back to a "normal" life and said the hydro company "could bite my meter"! The tone of which he said it was so funny.

[Bob Macadoo]

'm going to try to tackle the lot of this misinformation pile.

This is true. However we can go back a few years and recall Enron in California and their deliberate brown outs which allowed them to cry victim and was able to increase rates and put the boots to the population who was sweating during a very warm summer.

Cali is a completely different beast with their fully privatized power generator and grid. If you want to go that way check with which of the political parties wish to send you that way.

We live in a technologically driven world that demands electricity. Everything needs power.One thing that I have seen which is really an unnecessary trend, is the use of electronic dispensers. Many bathrooms now, have a sensor on the toilet, under the tap, or the paper towel dispenser. These things are on 24hrs a day too. So they are constantly draining power. So we can take a good strain off the grid by not having every little device use power.

Do you know the power consumption of an Autoflush? 0.5 mW, 1/120000th of a std incandescent bulb, so I think we've conserved enough in other areas to cover the cost of germ spreading hand to mouth. Be more concerned about your dryer.

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