Big Guy Posted March 12, 2014 Report Posted March 12, 2014 Two different majority governments, 12 years, 158 military lives and $multi billions Canadian tax dollars later the Canadian flags came down in Afghanistan to-day. The place and time of the official ceremony had to be withheld from the media “for security reasons” until the last minute. Our forces have officially "withdrawn”. Was it worth it? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
WestCoastRunner Posted March 12, 2014 Report Posted March 12, 2014 It may not have been worth it to us and I fear for the women and children in Afghanistan now that we and other countries have left. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted March 12, 2014 Report Posted March 12, 2014 A quote from Manley: "We are among the most privileged countries on earth. And with great privilege comes great responsibility. Sometimes you just have to do the jobs that you don't really want to do, because that's your responsibility." I feel that there is much more we can do for the women of Afghanistan, however, I am at a loss as to how we do that. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Keepitsimple Posted March 12, 2014 Report Posted March 12, 2014 A quote from Manley: "We are among the most privileged countries on earth. And with great privilege comes great responsibility. Sometimes you just have to do the jobs that you don't really want to do, because that's your responsibility." I feel that there is much more we can do for the women of Afghanistan, however, I am at a loss as to how we do that. And therein lies the problem. As trite as it sounds, at least we tried. It was heartbreaking to see the Taliban executing people on the soccer fields, blowing up ancient religious symbols, keeping women out of schools....we HAD to do SOMETHING.....and I'm proud of our efforts....in spite of those who had nothing but criticism for our government - for our military - for our sense of value. Shame on all of them. I wish we had better answers to the hatred and ignorance that fuels the minds of monsters like the core Taliban. We don't.....and it eats away at me that we can't do more. Quote Back to Basics
WestCoastRunner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Shame on all of them. I wish we had better answers to the hatred and ignorance that fuels the minds of monsters like the core Taliban. We don't.....and it eats away at me that we can't do more. I agree. It breaks my heart but I am always looking for solutions to this problem. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
carepov Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Our work in Afghanistan was ruined by the War in Iraq. Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 I have to say that my deepest passion is for the women in Afghanistan and if everyone knew what the women battled against, it would break their hearts. President Hamid Karzai's government has let down Afghan women, according to the new EU ambassador to Kabul, who singled out the failure to end prosecution of rape victims and other abused women for "moral crimes" as a particular "disgrace". Franz-Michael Mellbin said that despite huge practical improvements in areas from maternal mortality to the number of girls in schools, Afghanistan was still one of the worst places to be a woman and a frontline in the global battle for women's rights. Many women believe this is happening because political interest in Afghanistan is fading in the west as troops head home. They fear that with the complete departure of foreign forces this year, conservatives will chip away faster at their rights or simply use them as a bargaining chip in peace talks with the Taliban. We can't let political interest fade away especially in Canada. We need to lead the way! Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Our work in Afghanistan was ruined by the War in Iraq. How so ? Most NATO partners stayed out of Iraq, only to avoid risky missions in Afghanistan anyway. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
WestCoastRunner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 I also believe that women's work will be disregarded. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 How so ? Most NATO partners stayed out of Iraq, only to avoid risky missions in Afghanistan anyway. How can you help women and children in Afghanistan? How do we measure risky missions? Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 How can you help women and children in Afghanistan? How do we measure risky missions? ISAF forces were constituted to first provide security and a safe/stable environment to deliver aid and establish governance, education, services, etc. Risky missions seek and destroy the enemy outside the wire. Without security and stability, men, women, and children face a bleak future. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
carepov Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 How so ? Most NATO partners stayed out of Iraq, only to avoid risky missions in Afghanistan anyway. If some ressources used in the Iraq War had been deployed in Afghanistan instead... If the West/NATO cooperated more instead of arguing and mistrusting each other... Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 ISAF forces were constituted to first provide security and a safe/stable environment to deliver aid and establish governance, education, services, etc. Risky missions seek and destroy the enemy outside the wire. Without security and stability, men, women, and children face a bleak future. I can only agree with you there. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 If some ressources used in the Iraq War had been deployed in Afghanistan instead... If the West/NATO cooperated more instead of arguing and mistrusting each other... If...if...if.....this has been discussed here before. Yes, the Americans could have deployed more resources to Afghanistan (it still contributed far more than any other NATO member), but other members (including Canada) did not commit as much as they could have either. Canada deployed with inadequate kit and support, left its tactical air (CF-188s) at home, and was also frustrated by other NATO members' reluctance to engage the enemy. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
WestCoastRunner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Excuse me, this has been discussed before?? Forgive me, I have forgotten that us folks on the west coast of BC like to chat and shoot the shit. Do you have anything against that? Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Excuse me, this has been discussed before?? Forgive me, I have forgotten that us folks on the west coast of BC like to chat and shoot the shit. Do you have anything against that? Not at all.....my response was in context to another member and the history of Canada's mission in Afghanistan, debated here in real time. This is a retrospective thread compared to that. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Was it worth it? Not even close. The best legacy it can hope for is that it stands as the reason why we refuse to be dragged into anyone else's godawful fiascos. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 How so ? Most NATO partners stayed out of Iraq, only to avoid risky missions in Afghanistan anyway. And the official "excuse" for Iraq was what again? Just because GWB was too dumb to understand a map doesn't reallt cut it. Quote
hitops Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Our efforts in Afghanistan were noble, unfortunately if the culture wants to abuse it's women and values ignorance and suppression, there is little a nation that spends as little on it's military as we do, can do about it. I can only pray that these women one day gain some control over their lives. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 As do I. Although I wonder how much success those noble efforts will actually come to bear the fruit you speak of. I suspect not so much. I feel a bit guilty. I went there I learned a lot, I got to look into their lives. And then I came back home to another world. Except it's actually the same world, seperated only by a 17 hour plane ride. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Why did we go to Afghanistan ? It wasn't because of human rights violations, but because they harboured terrorists that attacked the US in 2001, I think. Does anyone dispute that it was the core reason ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 And the official "excuse" for Iraq was what again? Just because GWB was too dumb to understand a map doesn't reallt cut it. This doesn't make any sense, as it was GWB who engaged Afghanistan in the first place. The Americans are still there. This thread is not about Iraq, or Libya, or Haiti. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Big Guy Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Why did we go to Afghanistan ? It wasn't because of human rights violations, but because they harboured terrorists that attacked the US in 2001, I think. Does anyone dispute that it was the core reason ? I agree. The success of any mission is evaluated as to what degree the goals had been achieved and at what price. Does anybody know or remember what the Canadian goals were in this conflict? Edited March 13, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Two different majority governments, 12 years, 158 military lives and $multi billions Canadian tax dollars later the Canadian flags came down in Afghanistan to-day. The place and time of the official ceremony had to be withheld from the media “for security reasons” until the last minute. Our forces have officially "withdrawn”. Was it worth it? Nope. You can't go nation building, which was what that was all about after the Americans dislodged the Taliban, without some good raw material. And there is precious little of that in a primitive place full of religious fanatics like Afghanistan. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Why did we go to Afghanistan ? It wasn't because of human rights violations, but because they harboured terrorists that attacked the US in 2001, I think. Does anyone dispute that it was the core reason ? The Americans had already kicked out the Taliban when we went in. Chretien agreed to it as a way of getting out of not sending anyone to Iraq. The mission was 'peacekeeping' so the aid workers could rebuild the country as a glorious bastion of democracy and equality. Unfortunately, the only way to have done that was to kill all the Afghans and import people from another culture there - one that's not muslim. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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