Boeing 777 Disappears Near Vietnam

[WWWTT]

The internet and theory are wonderful things but they often don't explain how things work in the real world.

Yes the aircraft is capable of flying a long way but fueling an aircraft is not like filling up your car. they rarely fly with full tanks. Fuel is the biggest expense an airline has, so its use is tightly controlled for both economic and safety reasons. It is expensive to carry excess fuel and airlines try to avoid it. A rule of thumb is that it you will cost you 10% of any extra fuel loaded just to carry the added weight. A typical fuel load for a flight would include enough fuel to get to its destination and do an approach, plus enough fuel to get to its alternate airport and hold for 30 minutes. On top of this, contingency fuel will be added for things like weather and possible ATC delays. These calculations are done by the flight planning department. Fueling would be overseen by dispatch, maintenance and the fuel company, not the crew. The crew would check the flight plan fuel against the fuel on board and they might add some extra fuel but would need a reason and could not keep it a secret.

The aircraft's takeoff performance is also predicated on its weight and airport density altitude, so no it is not possible that there was more fuel on the airplane than reported.

I hope this has been educational.

Again, your conspiracy theory has to involve far too many people for it to work.

Do you use the word "possible"

From your comment, you seem to think that I didn't?

I only mentioned that it was a "possibility"!

As well you didn't provide any links!

If you respond back without even an attempt to provide a reliable backing link, I'm not going to waste anymore of my time debating your OPINION!

Do I make myself clear buddy!

WWWTT

[Wilber]

I don't need links, It was my occupation for over three decades.

I'm trying to be helpful

[WWWTT]

WWWTT, since they were not flying at 1000 kph, that time would be longer. So average about 700kph, maybe close to 20 hrs.

Ya I just threw that rough number out there to show that the current search follows a 5-7hr flight time path.

I'm sure there are other factors affecting fuel consumption. I assume that there would be an optimal cruising speed to maximize fuel efficiency.

One of the links that I provided explains that the model of plane is capable of connecting almost any two major cities in the world.

But I don't think that the speed is known after it went missing?

And here's the thing, somebody obviously went through a lot of trouble to hide the movement of this plane. This is a fact! The only other alternative is that there was a fire or an electrical short, this would have alarmed the pilots and they would immediately attempt to safely land the plane! So I am confident that there was people on the inside that hid the movements! All it would take is a ground crew when filling the plane to falsify the weight added. And then the plane can pretty much go anywhere in the world!

Keep in mind, that this plane has a fantastic safety record! It was built to take off, fly and land very safely! That is an unquestionable fact!

As far as I'm concerned, this plane has done everything that it was designed to do, up until it went missing.

IF there is no wreckage ever found, this plane was never destroyed.

If someone claims the plane was destroyed, then the burden of proof is on them that this plane and or crew did something out of character!

WWWTT

[guyser]

I don't need links, It was my occupation for over three decades.

I'm trying to be helpful

Yes but realize your 3 decades mean squat to someone on the internet wilber...come on now, you know the plane just vanished and is on some large lot somewhere

[Wilber]

Yes but realize your 3 decades mean squat to someone on the internet wilber...come on now, you know the plane just vanished and is on some large lot somewhere

[On Guard for Thee]

Wilber is correct. Big airplanes don't fly around with full fuel tanks, unless they have to. This was an ER so it probably had less than half tanks for this particular flight.

[WestCoastRunner]

If you respond back without even an attempt to provide a reliable backing link, I'm not going to waste anymore of my time debating your OPINION!

Do I make myself clear buddy!

WWWTT

A backing link to what? His experience as a pilot? His experience is not an opinion, it's EXPERIENCE. Unless of course, you think he is impersonating a pilot.

[On Guard for Thee]

A backing link to what? His experience as a pilot? His experience is not an opinion, it's EXPERIENCE. Unless of course, you think he is impersonating a pilot.

Exactly. A little hands on can cut through a lot of junk, conspiracy theories etc. For instance I can pretty much guarantee you no airliner flies around with a drop more fuel in the tanks than it needs for the trip it's going on. KL to Beijing would require about 8 hours fuel.

[Michael Hardner]

... I can pretty much guarantee you no airliner flies around with a drop more fuel in the tanks than it needs for the trip it's going on. KL to Beijing would require about 8 hours fuel.

The conspiracy mindset will say "it's possible". Why do they say that ? To foment intrigue and imaginative speculation, as entertainment. It goes with any mystery like a hand to a glove.

[WWWTT]

A backing link to what? His experience as a pilot? His experience is not an opinion, it's EXPERIENCE. Unless of course, you think he is impersonating a pilot.

Do you know the difference between experience and BS is?

Do you think about what you are writing?

If his "experience" is not an opinion, then why is it so hard for him to provide a link for what he is writing? Even an opinion can be backed up!

Ok then so lets go back and actually look at what Wilber has written that has me concerned with his "EXPERIENCE" (as if capitalizing the letters would somehow express that only the person writing understands that freekin word

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23421-boeing-777-disappears-near-vietnam/page-15#entry952736

Of all the comments made, Wilber, a self proclaimed experienced pilot has spent one total comment about safety procedures. Do you not find that a little odd for an alleged experienced pilot?

Here's what I fond with a couple minutes searching. Very recent incidents, local and very related/relevant to the missing plane now!

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVr_kLEBTPncAGNUXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBya3R2ZmV1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1396743525/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fottawa.ctvnews.ca%2fairplane-makes-emergency-landing-after-smoke-reported-on-board-1.1206473/RK=0/RS=UFuD0TPvP6FCWvforDc0s6LHQrw-

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVkBRLUBTJyMApA8XFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBya3R2ZmV1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1396743633/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fnews.ca.msn.com%2flocal%2fmanitoba%2fplane-forced-to-land-in-winnipeg-after-smoke-fills-cockpit/RK=0/RS=EORDuKv4Ci5O2HCCBPJujMMxTrw-

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjsZAUBTSUoAodwXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZHI5MXByBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1396732313/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.reuters.com%2farticle%2f2013%2f09%2f29%2fus-poland-lot-idUSBRE98S0DI20130929/RK=0/RS=5scl3ylvQa_nhI7rdTlvxRbIr1M-

Now why can't an allegedly "EXPERIENCED" poster do a quick search for a couple examples???

Wilber is obviously more interested in writing about conspiracy theories and "tin foil hats" since many more of his comments revolve around those topics as opposed to safety procedures from a trained, "EXPERIENCED" pilot. Oh and by the way, if I was a passenger on a flight, I sure as hope that the pilot of the plane is more concerned with safety than tin foil hats!

Don't believe me, go back and read them, that simple!

WWWTT

Edited April 5, 2014 by WWWTT

[Big Guy]

Chinese claim to have picked up "pings" at the correct frequency. How far from the box can these pings be noticed? Can dolphins imitate the same pings at that frequency?

[WWWTT]

Here is another interesting bit I cam across

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjjDNUBTtmAA1SAXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1396745795/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.themalaysianinsider.com%2fmalaysia%2farticle%2fsatellites-picked-up-pings-from-malaysian-jet-say-sources/RK=0/RS=zICd45dM56lbI.zGOcim_DbVznU-

According to this link, the pinging is evidence that the plane can still communicate! Here's the quote:

But the "pings" indicated its maintenance troubleshooting systems were switched on and ready to communicate with satellites, showing the aircraft, with 239 people on board, was at least capable of communicating after losing touch with air traffic controllers

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Chinese claim to have picked up "pings" at the correct frequency. How far from the box can these pings be noticed? Can dolphins imitate the same pings at that frequency?

Pulses, not pings.

Here's a quote from the link:

"It would be truly incredible luck to blindly stumble across the ping from the black box, with no other debris having been located, with no other clues that this could be from that missing Malaysian aircraft," he said.

And here's the link.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV75qOUBT1WUAH8MXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1396746731/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cbc.ca%2fnews%2fworld%2fmalaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-pulse-signal-detected-chinese-report-says-1.2599494/RK=0/RS=zF_1PORk1yMFs_AiNRiJyrcXzB4-

Take it for what it is, but it is something!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Here is another interesting bit I cam across

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVjjDNUBTtmAA1SAXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1396745795/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.themalaysianinsider.com%2fmalaysia%2farticle%2fsatellites-picked-up-pings-from-malaysian-jet-say-sources/RK=0/RS=zICd45dM56lbI.zGOcim_DbVznU-

According to this link, the pinging is evidence that the plane can still communicate! Here's the quote:

But the "pings" indicated its maintenance troubleshooting systems were switched on and ready to communicate with satellites, showing the aircraft, with 239 people on board, was at least capable of communicating after losing touch with air traffic controllers

WWWTT

The link I provided here is another example why Wilber is going to have to start posting links to back up his alleged "EXPERIENCE"

WWWTT

[Wilber]

The link I provided here is another example why Wilber is going to have to start posting links to back up his alleged "EXPERIENCE"

WWWTT

I'm not going to pursue this any farther. People can choose to believe whoever they wish, it doesn't matter to me. Life is not a link, it's experience. On Guard for Thee and I have tried to give some good information. If you aren't interested in listening, that's your problem.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Wilber

[WWWTT]

I think you have an exaggerated view of the "latest tech" in use when it comes to communicating an aircraft's position when it is beyond radar coverage and VHF communication. The primary method is voice communication by HF radio. In some areas such as the North Atlantic, ATC and airlines who choose to equip and pay for the service can use a system called Controller Pilot Data link Communications (CPDLC) which can send communications between ATC and the aircraft through the ACARS by satellite. There is no automatic position reporting, it must be done by the crew. Recently one has been developed but is not in use because the need hasn't justified the cost yet.

From a technical point of view, it is entirely possible that a large aircraft could vanish without a trace. We just don't know why in this case.

Very detailed comment, surely there must be something out there to back it up?

As I understand it you are applying different possibilities on what was known to happen.

The plane made a sharp turn and flew in a direction that would have made the plane visible to radar. Not to mention that it was flying through a busy route. Where this plane first went missing was not the north Atlantic or south Indian oceans. As well the area was extensively searched and nothing turned up.

And what about the engine pinging signals back to satellites?

No sorry, you have omitted/substituted some critical facts so I'm going to have to start asking you to back up your claims here.

I'm not going to start forgetting known facts to entertain your speculations!

WWWTT

And so then my predictable request, according to forum rules, any member is entitled to make such a request. (see forum rules for more details)

Yes a turn was observed by radar but once the aircraft was three hundred miles out to sea, radar would not be able to track it. A little thing called the curvature of the earth. The pings were just the aircraft and satellite checking for connectivity No data was transferred. Malaysian does not subscribe to the service that sends engine data back to the manufacturer and Rolls Royce said they had received no data from MH 370. MH 370's possible tracks were calculated by Immarsat annalysing the doppler effect of the aircraft's pings, that is why they aren't very precise.

These and my explanations about how aircraft position reports are made aren't speculations, they are how the system works.

So now we have a conspiracy that so far involves the US government, the Carlisle group and two British companies, Immarsat and Rolls Royce. That's the problem with these theories, for them to work they have to involve so many different people and agencies, it would be impossible to keep them secret.

Still more unsubstantiated opinions. And Wilber goes into debunking conspiracy theory mode!

So what's Wilber's interest here?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

I'm not going to pursue this any farther. People can choose to believe whoever they wish, it doesn't matter to me. Life is not a link, it's experience. On Guard for Thee and I have tried to give some good information. If you aren't interested in listening, that's your problem.

Life isn't a computer, internet or a political debate forum either, but guess how we're communicating? Guess how millions of people around the world make a living? Guess how many people find interest in engaging in debate on forums like this? Guess how many people use the internet? Here's a link!

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVvhUQEBTVzMALUEXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnV2cXQwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1396748501/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fInternet/RK=0/RS=pA9k0d4f1GWqAOf_877HX.uvLWo-

WWWTT

[Rue]

WW what is with this tone of superiority to posters on the forum that they are not substantiating their opinions or questioning their motives? What's with that?

Where do you get off questing a poster's motives or right to state their opinions? What do you really think you substantiate yours?

What you do is propose subjective opinions then provide internet sites that back up your opinion. We all might do that and so? what you magically are righteous now and have the right to question others as not substantiating their opinions? Why? Sometimes they state clearly subjective ones. Yours ar eno more objective than there opinions. The fact you find a site you think backs you up doesn't make your opinion more credible or objective, not when the site you quote is simply stating a subjective opinion. No you do not have a monopoly on opinion and what is the correct one. State yours. \Quote all the links you want. It won't necessarily make your opinions any more valid than any one else's on this forum. Wilbur has much a right to state his opinions as you do. What you want me to come up with a motive for your positions? You want me to accuse you of being a Putin operative because of your calling Russia a democracy? Lol. Get real We are on an opinion forum.

The tone of your arrogance is pointless. Just either engage in debate or don't but questioning people's motives? Step down. You are getting way too personal. Come on take a step back.

[Rue]

Wilbur my motive in the last post was to state I agree with your comments 100%.

We do live at a time now when we have a generation who believe the internet provides them a basis of infallible truth and makes them righteous in debates.

Its actually quite fun to see the latest version of the know it all self righteous prophets preaching only now instead of quoting the Bible they use the internet.

It is my contention the internet is the replacement fo the Bible and when certain people feel they do not have the answers they try appease the neurotic anxiety of not knowing with an internet site to provide them their answer-the internet like the BIble becomes their platform and basis of faith and thus the self righteous tones and presumptions they know and you do not unless you are in on the same site's conspiracy theory.

Conspiracy theories I would argue like mythology and religion (to me one and the same) are createdby people afraid that they live in a world that makes no sense so they desperately give it sense. It provides security and makes the wor ld seem less threatening. It offers reasons for everything like the Bible once did.

I tend to think of the internet as simply pornographic faith. I mean it takes away imagination-it requires no creativity-it lays it all out for the lazy mind which no longer engages in critical analysis.

For the life of me I do not get the WW's of the world who think they engage in critical analysis because they repeat unsubstantiated subjective theory of others from the web site and try pass that off as "substantiation", i.e., TRUTH.

I personally doubt we will ever know what really happened with the Malaysia flight and I think that will allow a never ending series of conspiracy theories and prophets claiming to know the truth.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Rue

[Wilber]

Good posts Rue. Points taken.

[On Guard for Thee]

Chinese claim to have picked up "pings" at the correct frequency. How far from the box can these pings be noticed? Can dolphins imitate the same pings at that frequency?

[WestCoastRunner]

I suggest that Wilbur and Guard on Thee provide links to their resume that they might have posted on monster.com. Then we will know for sure that they aren't imposters. Oh wait, they might provide links to resumes that aren't theirs!

[On Guard for Thee]

You have to be in the neighborhood of a couple nautical miles laterally to hear a ping, depending on conditions. So it literally is a needle in a haystack when you consider the vastness of the ocean. I think certain sea creatures, such as the dolphin can make such a noise. I have read some research books by John Lily (Mind of the Dolphin) who reckons they can actually learn to mimic things they hear. However it's unlikely they would repeat the sound with the same rep. period continously. I think if it sounds like a pinger, it's probably a pinger. Now if they can just get back on it youy can do a procedure with turns and timings etc. to put you at least close to directly over top and then drop in a submersible. Fingers crossed.

[WWWTT]

WW what is with this tone of superiority to posters on the forum that they are not substantiating their opinions or questioning their motives? What's with that?

Where do you get off questing a poster's motives or right to state their opinions? What do you really think you substantiate yours?

The tone of your arrogance is pointless. Just either engage in debate or don't but questioning people's motives? Step down. You are getting way too personal. Come on take a step back.

Like I said before, go so the forum rules for more details.

If you don't like the forum rules, then your argument is with the moderators, not me.

As far as your last comment I highlighted goes, no I will not stop debating on a debate forum (your request actually sounds ridiculous when its held up for what it really is). But somehow you believe I'm not debating? I guess you have no other way to debate, so then you resort to making personal attacks (of getting personal)! Kind of low but if you think that you are engaging in some kind of tactful debating style, good luck with that one.

WWWTT

[On Guard for Thee]

Pulses, not pings.

Here's a quote from the link:

"It would be truly incredible luck to blindly stumble across the ping from the black box, with no other debris having been located, with no other clues that this could be from that missing Malaysian aircraft," he said.

And here's the link.

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV75qOUBT1WUAH8MXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1396746731/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cbc.ca%2fnews%2fworld%2fmalaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-pulse-signal-detected-chinese-report-says-1.2599494/RK=0/RS=zF_1PORk1yMFs_AiNRiJyrcXzB4-

Take it for what it is, but it is something!

WWWTT

If the airplane went in under autopilot control, it may not have broken up much and those big chunks would sink. If it went in out of control the big bits (with the pinger) would still have sunk. The little bits would by now have drifted hundreds of miles in the wind and wave. so you could easily stumble across the ping with nothing else in view.