Northern Gateway Pipeline Lawsuit

[WestCoastRunner]

Northern Gateway won't happen. Certainly not anytime soon. Get used to it.

I believe you are right. Just too many obstacles for them to overcome. And we are ultimately responsible for what we leave behind to future generations.

[WestCoastRunner]

I believe you are right. Just too many obstacles for them to overcome. And we are ultimately responsible for what we leave behind to future generations.

Regardless of how many $$$ Christie can wrestle from Redford.

[On Guard for Thee]

I believe you are right. Just too many obstacles for them to overcome. And we are ultimately responsible for what we leave behind to future generations.

My impression is that there are a number of native communities that don't support it and of course who's lands would be the most affected in a spill. I would think they can hold that up in the courts for quite some time. I also am convinced if you have to move the oil somewhere, move it east. Stay away from the mountains and earthquake zones. New Brunswick could stop buying oil from Saudi as a result. Why can't we get these electric cars going a bit better than we have? Scientists say 1/10th of 1% of the energy we receive from the sun each day would take care of our needs.

[WestCoastRunner]

My impression is that there are a number of native communities that don't support it and of course who's lands would be the most affected in a spill. I would think they can hold that up in the courts for quite some time. I also am convinced if you have to move the oil somewhere, move it east. Stay away from the mountains and earthquake zones. New Brunswick could stop buying oil from Saudi as a result. Why can't we get these electric cars going a bit better than we have? Scientists say 1/10th of 1% of the energy we receive from the sun each day would take care of our needs.

I think they would have another fight on their hands if deciding to go east. It would again be a disaster if oil leaked into the lakes and river system in Ontario and Quebec. But I too think heading east may be a feasible option. An advantage of going east is that they have already resolved the issues of tanker traffic and the politics will certainly be easier to go east (There is the Irving oil refinery and they can ship through the Panama Canal to Asia).

There is actually even talk of moving the oil through the port at Churchill, Man.

[gunrutz]

No one can absolutely guarantee that tankers regardless of their engineering and construction will not leak oil into our beautiful sea which is habitat for whales, dolphins, sea lions, etc. And Waldo is absolutely right in asking your personal risk factor? Do you live on the west coast? Have you thought about the implications of a massive oil spill. The impact of an oil spill far outweigh any economic benefit that may arise by building this pipeline and transporting through the shipping lanes.

No, he isnt right, he is a hypocrite, and so are you. Why don't you tell us, what is your personal risk factor for the extraction, refinement, and transport of the petroleum products that you use out of or over someone else's land, or along someone else's coastline? How much risk is ok for them to assume on your behalf? Since you clearly think your environment is too precious too risk, but like all of us you use these products, which leads to the only possible conclusion that you don't mind if someoone else takes the risk for you.

This extremely small minded view seems to be prevalent in BC, a sort of collective narcissism, let me clue you in, you aren't special, your land isn't special, your water isn't special, if you want to live this modern life, and your existence on the internet would confirm that, then you need to take as much risk as the rest of us in maintaining that life. Your precious province is no better than those of the east coast, where oil tankers regularly visit, but then those people don't have an incredibly infalted sense of self importance, so they don't behave as though they should be untouched by all aspects of the world we all enjoy. Even after oil spills, but then it would be awfully stupid to swear off all of the enormous benefits of oil after an accident, or even before one happens, it would be even more stupid to swear off the risks associsted with it's production while still enjoying it's benefits. Sorry, wrong word, right word is hypocrite.

[gunrutz]

Here are a couple of things I find special about BC. #1, it's a stonesthrow from Prince William Sound. You remember that little gig I assume. And #2, I live there. I don't think I want some drunk American ship driver depositing 11 million barrells of crude on my shores.

But your ok if the same happens in the bay of fundy, or have you stopped using all petroleum products? This is the worst kind of nimbyism.

[TimG]

How many double hulled tankers did not spill after a accident??

In the study 4.94% of SH tankers had accidents and 0.66% had spills. 2.50% of DH tankers had accidents yet only 0.19% had a spill.

This data says that DH tankers reduce the risk of having an accident by 2x and reduce the risk of a spill even when an accident occurs by over 3x.

DH tankers are not enough to ensure no spills on their own but they do greatly reduce the risk of one. A comprehensive approach that includes stringent maintenance requirements, inspections and the use of best practices would reduce the risk to pretty close to 0.

[On Guard for Thee]

I think they would have another fight on their hands if deciding to go east. It would again be a disaster if oil leaked into the lakes and river system in Ontario and Quebec. But I too think heading east may be a feasible option. An advantage of going east is that they have already resolved the issues of tanker traffic and the politics will certainly be easier to go east (There is the Irving oil refinery and they can ship through the Panama Canal to Asia).

There is actually even talk of moving the oil through the port at Churchill, Man.

I am no expert on pipelines but I was given a tour through one of the pumping stations some years ago on the Mackenzie pipeline and they showed me that if there was a pressure drop anywhare on the line, valves would automatically isolate that section of the line.That portion of the line would spill but that's all. If you ram a ship on the rocks I reckon you stand a good chance of loosing the whole shebang. So I guess my conclusion is if I have to see one or the other, I would feel more comfortable with pipes rather than ships.

I have heard of the northern route you speak of. Isn't it ironic that because of GW it may now be pheasable to run ships through Hudson's Bay.......to transport more carbon?

[WestCoastRunner]

No, he isnt right, he is a hypocrite, and so are you. Why don't you tell us, what is your personal risk factor for the extraction, refinement, and transport of the petroleum products that you use out of or over someone else's land, or along someone else's coastline? How much risk is ok for them to assume on your behalf? Since you clearly think your environment is too precious too risk, but like all of us you use these products, which leads to the only possible conclusion that you don't mind if someoone else takes the risk for you.

This extremely small minded view seems to be prevalent in BC, a sort of collective narcissism, let me clue you in, you aren't special, your land isn't special, your water isn't special, if you want to live this modern life, and your existence on the internet would confirm that, then you need to take as much risk as the rest of us in maintaining that life. Your precious province is no better than those of the east coast, where oil tankers regularly visit, but then those people don't have an incredibly infalted sense of self importance, so they don't behave as though they should be untouched by all aspects of the world we all enjoy. Even after oil spills, but then it would be awfully stupid to swear off all of the enormous benefits of oil after an accident, or even before one happens, it would be even more stupid to swear off the risks associsted with it's production while still enjoying it's benefits. Sorry, wrong word, right word is hypocrite.

Well, I think I'm pretty special.

But to re-iterate my main opposition to the pipeline is that BC does not have the ability to manage oil spills. As I mentioned in a prior post:

"Ottawa’s decision to deal with coastal oil spills from a base in Quebec would make it much harder to contain spills, and Transport Canada and the Coast Guard lack the needed “environmental expertise” to manage them, officials said in the documents obtained by The Canadian Press under freedom of information laws."

The east coast is better equipped to handle these types of tankers and oil spills if they do occur. There is also less risk of oil spills (we are in a highly volatile earthquake zone and the pipeline would traverse the mountain ranges.

And I am quoting here (I posted the link above if anyone cared to read it before attacking my stance): "The weather conditions and the remoteness of the pipeline’s route in B.C. could cause cleanup delays, leading to broader water, land and wildlife contamination. Sensitive habitats, local economies (fisheries and tourism, for example) and First Nations along the route could be affected.”

[On Guard for Thee]

But your ok if the same happens in the bay of fundy, or have you stopped using all petroleum products? This is the worst kind of nimbyism.

Nope. I used to live in Truro. Don't want if screwed up either.

[WestCoastRunner]

Isn't it ironic that because of GW it may now be pheasable to run ships through Hudson's Bay.......to transport more carbon?

[gunrutz]

I see you're still using that oil extracted, and shipped over or brought in by super tanker oever someone else' land or coastline, stick to those high minded principles.

[gunrutz]

Nope. I used to live in Truro. Don't want if screwed up either.

Well then, you should find yourself a nice cave somewhere.

[bleeding heart]

I see you're still using the internet, paid for by American tax dollars and then gifted to the private sector in the usual formulation. So you love (bottom-up) socialism.

The point being, gunrutz, that we all have to live in this world as it is, whatever our principles, and so such sanctimonious cries of "hypocrisy" refer to--literally, with zero exceptions--every single one of us. If we choose to view each other this way, that is.

[waldo]

I see you're still using that oil extracted, and shipped over or brought in by super tanker oever someone else' land or coastline, stick to those high minded principles.

nice try BigOil guy!

being from BC, member 'WestCoastRunner' doesn't rely on imported oil... no one in Western Canada does. You might want to set your targets eastward! While you're doing that you might want to advise why after keeping Western Canada self-sufficient, BigOil/Canada exports ~2/3 of its domestic produced oil to the U.S. ... while at the same time importing ~1/2 of all the oil used in Canada in order to support Eastern Canada's requirements (over and above what Eastern Canada develops itself). Since you speak of "high-minded principles", perhaps you can explain/rationalize that lil' import/export ratio thingee, hey?

.

[PIK]

I believe you are right. Just too many obstacles for them to overcome. And we are ultimately responsible for what we leave behind to future generations.

LOL Give us a break, and screw BC ,sick and tired listening to how great BC is and the people that live there. Gateway will be built.

[waldo]

This extremely small minded view seems to be prevalent in BC, a sort of collective narcissism, let me clue you in, you aren't special, your land isn't special, your water isn't special, if you want to live this modern life, and your existence on the internet would confirm that, then you need to take as much risk as the rest of us in maintaining that life.

risk? There can't be any risk... I mean, c'mon... look at Enbridge's version of the topography! But hey now, why would Enbridge resort to such 'sleight-of-hand', hey? Maybe the ever astute/insightful member 'PIK' would also like to advise.

details, smetails!

several posts within this thread have detailed the passage complexities of the Douglas Channel... the shipping passage to/from Kitimat. Unsurprisingly, Enbridge has just wiped away those complexities in it's latest (just released) promo video on the Northern Gateway:

- the Enbridge 'sleight of hand' versus the actual topography of Douglas Channel! Oh my!

.

[WestCoastRunner]

I know that Waldo mentioned this in another thread, but it deserves to be in this thread as well.

Now that Jim Prentice is involved with talks with First Nations, can he overcome their concerns:

Art Sterritt, the executive director of Coastal First Nations in B.C., met the announcement with a high-degree of skepticism, telling CBC News that enlisting Prentice to renew efforts to consult First Nations is "too little, too late" . Unless Prentice can show up with some new technology or a process to assure First Nations that pipelines are safe, that there is a way to clean up the mess when it happens, then there is really no sense in entering into this conversation," Sterritt said.

Prentice has made the point that big projects, such as the Northern Gateway pipeline, are dead in the water without real efforts to involve First Nations. "There will be no oil pipelines to the West Coast without economic partnerships with First Nations," Prentice said during a speech to the Manning Networking Conference in Ottawa last week.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/enbridge-taps-jim-prentice-to-rescue-northern-gateway-first-nations-talks-1.2560859

There is no guarantee the gateway pipeline will be built as someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

[overthere]

Here are a couple of things I find special about BC. #1, it's a stonesthrow from Prince William Sound. You remember that little gig I assume. And #2, I live there. I don't think I want some drunk American ship driver depositing 11 million barrells of crude on my shores.

I was fishing last summer in Prince William Sound on a charter out of Valdez. We caught our limit of delicious halibut in no time. The commercial and sport fisheries are thriving. It's a beautiful spot, even with huge tankers cruising through it every day for decades.

What was your point about PWS?

[On Guard for Thee]

I was fishing last summer in Prince William Sound on a charter out of Valdez. We caught our limit of delicious halibut in no time. The commercial and sport fisheries are thriving. It's a beautiful spot, even with huge tankers cruising through it every day for decades.

What was your point about PWS?

My point was with regard to the Exxon Valdez which left 11 million blls of oil on those shores.

[TimG]

My point was with regard to the Exxon Valdez which left 11 million blls of oil on those shores.

And guess what? Nature recovered!

[bush_cheney2004]

And guess what? Nature recovered!

Yep....crude oil is a naturally occurring substance. It comes from the earth.

[Wilber]

Bitumen is not the same thing as Alaska crude.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yep....crude oil is a naturally occurring substance. It comes from the earth.

So why don't you drink a little, couldn't hurt, it's natural.

[On Guard for Thee]

And guess what? Nature recovered!

And can you confirm she will do that forever? No you can't. We will be the author of our own demise. Then nature will carry on in some othr form I'm sure, except in a way that won't support humans.