Major Canadian citizenship reform bill coming

[jacee]

Yes, yes, I've seen these silly slippery slope type arguments before. You can use such wildly exagerated fears on almost any rule, law or legislation.

Ya, like Harper's playing into wildly exaggerated fears with this legislation.

The point you are ignoring is that by taking action against this country these individuals are showing they don't care about it and never have. Let them go home and be rid of them.

What if they are home?

What if their "terrorist act" was not against Canada?

What if the legislation is just pandering to malcontents who just want somebody punished?

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[Signals.Cpl]

Yes, yes, I've seen these silly slippery slope type arguments before. You can use such wildly exagerated fears on almost any rule, law or legislation.

its easy to call it silly when its not aimed at you, but slow and steady wins the race, what to say that small changes over 20 or 30 years don't bring about a major change?

The point you are ignoring is that by taking action against this country these individuals are showing they don't care about it and never have. Let them go home and be rid of them.

Ok great, and you simultaneously make 20%+ of Canadians 2nd rate citizens because suddenly my citizenship doesn't mean quite the same thing as your citizenship.

What do you do with Canadian born real citizens who commit acts of terror? How can you expect individuals like me to remain loyal to a country that treats me and my family as second rate citizens?

You might find it "silly" but its not a major jump between terrorism and other major crimes, just replace spying and terrorism in your argument with say rape and murder I mean I'm neither a rapist or murderer so I shouldn't worry right? Why not save canadian money by stripping them of their citizenship and send them on their way?

It seems to me that individuals like you want to pretend to solve a problem rather than solve the problems... if you want to solve this problem be more selective during the immigration process, make tougher requirements to BECOME a citizen and make adequate laws and punishments for terrorism, spying, treason etc... for all rather having a punishment for citizens and another punishment for "citizens".

[jacee]

This is interesting: The first possible case under the new rules if passed:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/citizenship-amendments-change-what-it-takes-to-be-canadian-1.1892445

Controversially, the changes give the government powers to revoke the citizenship of Canadians who have dual citizenship and are found guilty in terrorism or treason cases.

This has attracted attention recently, with the high-profile case of Mohamed Fahmy. Fahmy is an Egyptian-Canadian journalist who was recently found guilty of terrorism in Egypt. The prime minister's office said Thursday that it has no intention of revoking his citizenship.

I wonder why they don't intend to revoke citizenship?

Does the Minister have sole discretion to pick and choose 'favourites' and pick on others ... out of personal prejudices or preferences, or for political gain?

Seems kind of hinkey to me!

The fix is in ... but it's not clear yet who the targets are. Not an Egyptian-Canadian journalist, it seems.

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[Argus]

its easy to call it silly when its not aimed at you, but slow and steady wins the race, what to say that small changes over 20 or 30 years don't bring about a major change?

I say you're being paranoid.

Ok great, and you simultaneously make 20%+ of Canadians 2nd rate citizens because suddenly my citizenship doesn't mean quite the same thing as your citizenship.

No, it doesn't. And in all honesty I would make becoming a citizen FAR harder than this bill does. To start with, you'd need to be here for ten years minimum, not four. I don't think you get off a boat and pick up a piece of paper and become Canadian. Could I do that with your former country? Could I pick up a piece of paper from a clerk in China or Germany and become Chinese or German? Hardly! I know nothing about their culture and very little about their history. It would take me many years of living among them and interacting with them -- after learning their language - before I could begin to appreciate what it means to be a German, say. I think it's ridiculous arrogance on the one side, and rather pathetic sense of inferiority on the other to think people could come here and become CANADIAN practically overnight, while barely speaking the language.

What do you do with Canadian born real citizens who commit acts of terror?

My personal choice would be execution.

How can you expect individuals like me to remain loyal to a country that treats me and my family as second rate citizens?

So don't. Leave. If youre so-called loyalty is shattered by the existence of a regulation which says your assumed citizenship can be stripped if you turn out to be acting against us on the part of a foreign organization or power than it's not really loyalty at all, now is it?

It seems to me that individuals like you want to pretend to solve a problem rather than solve the problems... if you want to solve this problem be more selective during the immigration process, make tougher requirements to BECOME a citizen

I'm all for that, of course, but in its abscence, given we seem to bring over a number of very undesirable 'citizens' I like the idea of being able to boot them out.

[jacee]

I say you're being paranoid.

I say we're trying to have an intelligent conversation about propposed legislation and you're off in Argus-la-la land somewhere.

You don't know what's in the legislation, you don't know current immigration requirements ... you just know you want to punish some immigrants somehow ... for something ... preferably Arab/Muslim.

Have I got that right?

I think it's ridiculous arrogance on the one side, and rather pathetic sense of inferiority on the other to think people could come here and become CANADIAN practically overnight,

Four years isn't overnight.

while barely speaking the language.

languages

So don't. Leave. If youre so-called loyalty is shattered by the existence of a regulation which says your assumed citizenship can be stripped if you turn out to be acting against us on the part of a foreign organization or power than it's not really loyalty at all, now is it?

Terrorism isn't always "on behalf of a foreign ... " anything. It could be purely domestic. It could be in another country. It could be any kind of terrorist act creating fear among the public.

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[Bonam]

I think we should consider making it significantly more difficult to become a citizen in the first place to hopefully filter out most of the kinds of people Argus is afraid of. But once you're a citizen, you're a citizen, and that should be that.

[Signals.Cpl]

I say you're being paranoid.

If you were in my place you would very likely feel the same.

No, it doesn't. And in all honesty I would make becoming a citizen FAR harder than this bill does. To start with, you'd need to be here for ten years minimum, not four. I don't think you get off a boat and pick up a piece of paper and become Canadian. Could I do that with your former country? Could I pick up a piece of paper from a clerk in China or Germany and become Chinese or German? Hardly! I know nothing about their culture and very little about their history. It would take me many years of living among them and interacting with them -- after learning their language - before I could begin to appreciate what it means to be a German, say. I think it's ridiculous arrogance on the one side, and rather pathetic sense of inferiority on the other to think people could come here and become CANADIAN practically overnight, while barely speaking the language.

If the restrictions were made harder then by all means Canada as a country can make them so in order to bring in the best immigrants to become citizens, but once they become citizens they are equal in any way shape or form to Canadian born citizens.

My personal choice would be execution.

Then by all means you should dish out the same punishment to all.

So don't. Leave. If youre so-called loyalty is shattered by the existence of a regulation which says your assumed citizenship can be stripped if you turn out to be acting against us on the part of a foreign organization or power than it's not really loyalty at all, now is it?

What kind of loyalty does this legislation give to immigrants who become Canadian citizens if their citizenship is not equal to that of Canadian born individuals? Why should I risk life and limb for a government that says I am second rate citizen? Once you become a citizen for better or worse you are Canadian. Loyalty is a two way street, if you don't understand that simple concept I cant help you.

I'm all for that, of course, but in its abscence, given we seem to bring over a number of very undesirable 'citizens' I like the idea of being able to boot them out.

So you could argue that we should boot out immigrants who commit murder, rape, assault etc... right? Right now the big thing is terrorism, if in 10 years it is prison crowding and someone comes up with the idea to boot "citizens" out, its only a small jump.

This creates a us vs them mentality, cant expect any loyalty from individuals if the country treats them as 2nd rate citizens, and all of this to cover up the problem rather than solving it since it seems to me a lot of the Canadian terrorists are Canadian born so ultimately you are saying if you are Canadian then we will deal with you, if you are "Canadian" then f**k you you are not one of us.

[Big Guy]

Fortunately for us Canadians we do have built in checks and balances that keep any particular government from doing too much damage even if it has a majority at the time. The dumb ideas and laws get overturned and rewritten by subsequent governments. The really, really dumb ideas and laws are quickly disqualified by our Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court is doing its job on this government. The next government will also do its job on the questionable omnibus bills pushed through this current legislature. When any government attempts to ram its own party ideology down the throat of the majority of Canadians it usually suffers the consequences.

[Argus]

I say we're trying to have an intelligent conversation about propposed legislation and you're off in Argus-la-la land somewhere.

Your attitude seems to be that the law says they're Canadian and that's all there is to it. It doesn't seem like you have the imagination to go any further than that.

You don't know what's in the legislation, you don't know current immigration requirements ... you just know you want to punish some immigrants somehow ... for something ... preferably Arab/Muslim.

Have I got that right?

Rarely do you ever get much right. You tend towards knee-jerk reactions towards everything, which is what I generally expect from ideologues of either the Left or Right. This bill is not about punishing anyway, but remedying a lie certain immigrants tell when they arrive, especially the one when they hold up their hand and vow to be loyal.

Four years isn't overnight.

Most arrive here speaking little or not English. They mainly settle in and among people from their own ethnic community, and interact rarely with the mainstream. It takes quite some time before they learn the language, and longer still before they begin to really interact with anyone outside their ethnic communities. Again, always exceptions, but that's been my observation. Many take years to learn the language at even a marginal level.

Four years after coming here, many immigrants have hardly even seen a native-born Canadian, except at a distance. They live in their communities, they often work in them, they read newspapers and watch TV from "home" in their native language. What have the school distracts in certain parts of BC discovered the last some years? That they are swamped with Canadian children, born here, raised here, who speak no English, having grown up within those ethnic communities till they begin to enter school.

Terrorism isn't always "on behalf of a foreign ... " anything. It could be purely domestic.

Anything's possible, but it's always been foreign inspired to date, barring that bit of nastiness in Quebec - the one province which doesn't share our language.

[monty16]

And I should care about what happens to him, for some reason?

Realistically, the odds of this happening are virtually zilch. What you'll instead see is some Chinese guy who came here working for his government, got Canadian citizenship (it ain't hard to do) and has been spying for the Chinese being caught and sent home. Or some lunatic jihadi who came here from a Muslim country deciding to blow people up losing his new citizenship and being sent home. And if instead it's his kid, say someone like, oh, how about Omar Khadr losing his citizenship? I'm fine with that too.

Please don't discriminate against Chinese people and Muslims. We're all Canadians regardless of our ethnicity or race.

[Signals.Cpl]

Fortunately for us Canadians we do have built in checks and balances that keep any particular government from doing too much damage even if it has a majority at the time. The dumb ideas and laws get overturned and rewritten by subsequent governments. The really, really dumb ideas and laws are quickly disqualified by our Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court is doing its job on this government. The next government will also do its job on the questionable omnibus bills pushed through this current legislature. When any government attempts to ram its own party ideology down the throat of the majority of Canadians it usually suffers the consequences.

And you can guarantee that the checks and balances will work? Or is this more of a hope that they will work?

[Big Guy]

And you can guarantee that the checks and balances will work? Or is this more of a hope that they will work?

It is a trust in our democratic system. It seems to have worked since 1867 and I can see no reason why it cannot continue to protect itself from periodic challenges.

Happy Canada Day!

[Signals.Cpl]

It is a trust in our democratic system. It seems to have worked since 1867 and I can see no reason why it cannot continue to protect itself from periodic challenges.

Happy Canada Day!

If the government begins to treat a large portion of its population as 2nd rate citizens people will lose trust in the system. As I said it is a small jump from terrorism to murder, rape, assault etc... the same argument that could be used to get this approved can be used for every subsequent amendment after all a crime is a crime so whats to stop it from happening? Its not enough to say the system will take care of any problems especially when individuals commit to actions that are counter productive. This solves none of the problems but adds a number of other problems...

[Peter F]

Yes, yes, I've seen these silly slippery slope type arguments before. You can use such wildly exagerated fears on almost any rule, law or legislation.

The point you are ignoring is that by taking action against this country these individuals are showing they don't care about it and never have. Let them go home and be rid of them.

By taking action against this country they are - I presume - committing a crime. Punishable by incarceration, just like all Canadians are subject too.

Why create special additional punishments for some canadians but not others - solely because they weren't born here?

[jacee]

This bill is not about punishing anyway, but remedying a lie certain immigrants tell when they arrive, especially the one when they hold up their hand and vow to be loyal.

This bill is not specifically about terrorist acts against Canada. If that's your concern, we already have laws for that: Lying to obtain citizenship, treason.

Most arrive here speaking little or not English. They mainly settle in and among people from their own ethnic community, and interact rarely with the mainstream. It takes quite some time before they learn the language, and longer still before they begin to really interact with anyone outside their ethnic communities. Again, always exceptions, but that's been my observation. Many take years to learn the language at even a marginal level.

So what? My Italian 90 year old neighbour has been here 60 years, raised his family here, paid his taxes ... and still barely speaks English.

Big deal!

So what!

Who cares!

Four years after coming here, many immigrants have hardly even seen a native-born Canadian, except at a distance. They live in their communities, they often work in them, they read newspapers and watch TV from "home" in their native language. What have the school distracts in certain parts of BC discovered the last some years? That they are swamped with Canadian children, born here, raised here, who speak no English, having grown up within those ethnic communities till they begin to enter school.$$1

So what!?!

Children's first language is the language of the home. That's been true for every wave of immigrants - Greek, Jewish, Italian, Portugese, etc - immigrants since before Canada was Canada.

So friggin what!

Sometimes I think some people like you have no friggin clue what Canada is about!!!

Anything's possible, but it's always been foreign inspired to date, barring that bit of nastiness in Quebec - the one province which doesn't share our language.

The 'first languages' and first laws of Canada are Mohawk and French. Gaelic was pretty big too, before Canada was Canada, when the English starved us out of Ireland.

The johnny-come-lately Brits and their wannabes don't 'own' Canada.

Go back to Anglo-land if you don't understand and aren't loyal to what Canada is really about!

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Edited July 2, 2014 by jacee

[Argus]

By taking action against this country they are - I presume - committing a crime. Punishable by incarceration, just like all Canadians are subject too.

Why create special additional punishments for some canadians but not others - solely because they weren't born here?

Because we granted them the right to come here based upon their pledge of loyalty to Canada, and they have renegged on that pledge. That should be enough to cancel our acceptance of them and send them on back wherever they came from.

[Argus]

This bill is not specifically about terrorist acts against Canada.

Removal of citizenship is.

So what? My Italian 90 year old neighbour has been here 60 years, raised his family here, paid his taxes ... and still barely speaks English.

Big deal!

So what!

Who cares!

I don't want your ITALIAN neighbour being allowed to vote in my country, that's what. Still barely speaks English? Then he's not a Canadian. How do you become a Canadian when you can't interact with other Canadians? Here sixty years and never bothered to learn the language? What that says to me is he never had any interest in becoming a Canadian in the first place.

Children's first language is the language of the home. That's been true for every wave of immigrants - Greek, Jewish, Italian, Portugese, etc - immigrants since before Canada was Canada.

So friggin what!

First, I'm a taxpayer. In fact, I pay a huge lot of taxes. And it goes for ESL classes for foreigners. The fact these kids learned no English is an indication their entire world speaks a foreign language. Their home, the kids they play with, and wherever they go. ESL classes are expensive, and who pays? Me.

The johnny-come-lately Brits and their wannabes don't 'own' Canada.

Go back to Anglo-land if you don't understand and aren't loyal to what Canada is really about!

.

What it seems to ber about is a bunch of people taking advantage of my unwilling generosity. You can make up fantasies about 'what canada is all about', and demand other people pay for them, but in reality Canada is an ongoing enterprise which ought to be run for the benefit of those who live here, not the benefit of foreigners.

I wonder how much you pay in taxes. I wonder if you even pay taxes.

[Michael Hardner]

I wonder how much you pay in taxes. I wonder if you even pay taxes.

Excuse me for being cynical about the idea that these immigrants cost Canada money. In fact, we have an economist as our PM and no substantial changes to immigration - in fact, he had to scale back a TFW program that expanded under his watch due to political pressures.

So you want me to believe that somehow these people see immigration as a drain ? I don't think so. I don't even think you have done any kind of costing on this yourself. Based on the arguments I have made, I'm inclined to believe that you're making decisions based on emotions and general distaste for outsiders.

So it is your right, but I'm not going to make it easy for you to pretend otherwise.

[jacee]

Removal of citizenship is.

Show me where in the proposed legislation it says "convicted of a terrorist act against Canada".

I don't want your ITALIAN neighbour being allowed to vote in my country, that's what. Still barely speaks English? Then he's not a Canadian. How do you become a Canadian when you can't interact with other Canadians? Here sixty years and never bothered to learn the language? What that says to me is he never had any interest in becoming a Canadian in the first place.

Neither do you, and I'd rather have him for a neighbour than you, rather have him voting than you!

First, I'm a taxpayer. In fact, I pay a huge lot of taxes. And it goes for ESL classes for foreigners. The fact these kids learned no English is an indication their entire world speaks a foreign language. Their home, the kids they play with, and wherever they go. ESL classes are expensive, and who pays? Me.

And me ... and my neighbour ... and all the people who come here.

You ain't special. Just prejudiced and bull-headed.

Welcome to the global communities of the 21st century. If Canada is going to compete globally, our multilingual population is a big asset.

Unlike ethnic unilingual enclaves like you who are an impediment to progress and an embarrassment to Canadian values.

What it seems to ber about is a bunch of people taking advantage of my unwilling generosity.

That's an oxymoron.

You can make up fantasies about 'what canada is all about', and demand other people pay for them, but in reality Canada is an ongoing enterprise which ought to be run for the benefit of those who live here, not the benefit of foreigners.

... who also live here, are citizens, pay taxes ...

YOU are the foreigner, unwilling to be part of Canada.

Go back to England!

I wonder how much you pay in taxes. I wonder if you even pay taxes.

I'd put my taxes up against yours anyday ... but it's too personal for the forum.

So you're saying people who make more money and pay more taxes are somehow more 'worthy', a better 'class' of Canadians? You?! A better 'class' of Canadian?!

You don't even know what Canada is about!!!

If we are going to strip anybody of citizenship for 'false pretenses', it should be people like you.

You know who doesn't pay enough taxes?

The rich who hide their money in offshore tax havens!

Besides ... a stingy old fart like you?!

I'll bet you cheat.

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Edited July 2, 2014 by jacee

[Argus]

Excuse me for being cynical about the idea that these immigrants cost Canada money.

Why? It's already been documented that it costs us billions every year.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/17/immigrants-cost-23b-a-year-fraser-institute-report/

In fact, we have an economist as our PM and no substantial changes to immigration

Your faith and confidence in Harper is touching given he's a man you'd give your left arm to see gone.

Harper is a political hack. Everyone knows that. Like Chretien before him, his top priority is always getting re-elected.

He's not about to start the kind of storm he'd get from the media elites and people like you if he dared to start cutting back immigration, or even redirecting it away from countries which produce so many failed immigrants. No, instead he courts the immigrant vote, just like politicians before him.

[jacee]

Why? It's already been documented that it costs us billions every year.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/17/immigrants-cost-23b-a-year-fraser-institute-report/

From your link ...

... future generations end up repaying their parents debt by earning an average or above-average living in the long run.

Just like you and your family!

Imagine that!

[Argus]

From your link ...

... future generations end up repaying their parents debt by earning an average or above-average living in the long run.

Just like you and your family!

Imagine that!

Nice, dishonest misquote. That's taken from what they call 'popular propositions' and followed immiediately by:

Mr. Grubel and economic consultant Patrick Grady argue, however, that these benefits either do not hold up to close scrutiny or that they are simply not worth the economic cost.

[Argus]

Show me where in the proposed legislation it says "convicted of a terrorist act against Canada".

Neither do you, and I'd rather have him for a neighbour than you, rather have him voting than you!

You couldn't afford to live in my neighbourhood, so that's a given.

Your posting style tends to the shrill, but never moreso than when anyone challenges one of your politically correct beliefs, then you grow so frantic it looks like you're simply screaming.

Not worth my time responding.

[PIK]

This bill is not specifically about terrorist acts against Canada. If that's your concern, we already have laws for that: Lying to obtain citizenship, treason.

So what? My Italian 90 year old neighbour has been here 60 years, raised his family here, paid his taxes ... and still barely speaks English.

Big deal!

So what!

Who cares!

So what!?!

Children's first language is the language of the home. That's been true for every wave of immigrants - Greek, Jewish, Italian, Portugese, etc - immigrants since before Canada was Canada.

So friggin what!

Sometimes I think some people like you have no friggin clue what Canada is about!!!

The 'first languages' and first laws of Canada are Mohawk and French. Gaelic was pretty big too, before Canada was Canada, when the English starved us out of Ireland.

The johnny-come-lately Brits and their wannabes don't 'own' Canada.

Go back to Anglo-land if you don't understand and aren't loyal to what Canada is really about!

.

.

.

I guess to you, Canada started when PET became PM.

[Michael Hardner]

Why? It's already been documented that it costs us billions every year.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/17/immigrants-cost-23b-a-year-fraser-institute-report/

Yes, well that document only tells part of the story. Or the current government is insane, I suppose.

Your faith and confidence in Harper is touching given he's a man you'd give your left arm to see gone.

I'm not sure where you get that assertion. I surely haven't said that.

Harper is a political hack. Everyone knows that. Like Chretien before him, his top priority is always getting re-elected.

We have already seen the political risks of programs like TFW, so why does he continue with policies that favour immigration ? Is it... a conspiracy ?

He's not about to start the kind of storm he'd get from the media elites and people like you if he dared to start cutting back immigration, or even redirecting it away from countries which produce so many failed immigrants. No, instead he courts the immigrant vote, just like politicians before him.

Yes, a conspiracy... just as I thought. Except the TFW program wasn't popular, and was cut despite the government's efforts to keep it going. Sorry, Argus, it doesn't compute.