Ukraine crisis

[-TSS-]

The Baltic states were very long-sighted to join NATO when the door was open for them. Had they not done so Russia would have invaded them under some excuse. Especially Estonia during the bronze statue-argument in 2007.

[jbg]

The Baltic states were very long-sighted to join NATO when the door was open for them. Had they not done so Russia would have invaded them under some excuse. Especially Estonia during the bronze statue-argument in 2007.

Ditto Poland, Czech Republic, and Hungary.

[jbg]

The Ukraine situation illustrates the rank hypocrisy we see in the West. And self-destructive hypocrisy. We don't criticize our enemies. Instead, we try to force the surrender of our allies. Thus the title, Chicken Kiev. The immediate setting is of course the Ukraine but this has happened before.

During the 1970's through 1990's college campuses and other fashionable places were full of anti-apartheid movements. Since 2005 this has been replaced by anti-Israel "BDS" movement. At various times similar groups have championed more obscure causes such as rights of American Indians. The facts in these various situations are confusing and somewhat ambiguous. Even the clearest of the situations, that of South Africa, had its ambiguities since the white Boers had no place to go if majority rule took the path of Zimbabwe. There, it should be recalled, white rights were initially respected and then brutalized.

In the Middle East, after three (3) full-scale invasions and between those invasions almost continuous "guerrilla" activity, Israel finally took territory to ensure that it had defensible borders. The ultimate result was the "BDS" or "boycott, disinvestment, sanctions" movement (link, excerpt from site below).

One year after the historic Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) which found Israel’s Wall built on occupied Palestinian territory to be illegal; Israel continues its construction of the colonial Wall with total disregard to the Court’s decision. Thirty eight years into Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian West Bank (including East Jerusalem), Gaza Strip and the Syrian Golan Heights, Israel continues to expand Jewish colonies. It has unilaterally annexed occupied East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights and is now de facto annexing large parts of the West Bank by means of the Wall. Israel is also preparing – in the shadow of its lanned redeployment from the Gaza Strip – to build and expand colonies in the West Bank. Fifty seven years after the state of Israel was built mainly on land ethnically cleansed of its Palestinian owners, a majority of Palestinians are refugees, most of whom are stateless. Moreover, Israel’s entrenched system of racial discrimination against its own Arab-Palestinian citizens remains intact.

In light of Israel’s persistent violations of international law; and

Given that, since 1948, hundreds of UN resolutions have condemned Israel’s colonial and discriminatory policies as illegal and called for immediate, adequate and effective remedies; and

Given that all forms of international intervention and peace-making have until now failed to convince or force Israel to comply with humanitarian law, to respect fundamental human rights and to end its occupation and oppression of the people of Palestine; and

In view of the fact that people of conscience in the international community have historically shouldered the moral responsibility to fight injustice, as exemplified in the struggle to abolish apartheid in South Africa through diverse forms of boycott, divestment and sanctions; and

Inspired by the struggle of South Africans against apartheid and in the spirit of international solidarity, moral consistency and resistance to injustice and oppression;

We, representatives of Palestinian civil society, call upon international civil society organizations and people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era. We appeal to you to pressure your respective states to impose embargoes and sanctions against Israel. We also invite conscientious Israelis to support this Call, for the sake of justice and genuine peace.

These non-violent punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people’s inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

Where are these people on the Ukraine issue? Here, Russia's invasion has been brazen and unprovoked. Nothing happening in Kiev threatens Russia. Before someone responds that the Russian government is simply protecting ethnic Russians, one should recall that Israel did not invade Egypt, Iraq or Yemen when those ancient Jewish societies were threatened with annihilation. Israel, at great expense, relocated these largely ignorant and almost unemployable populations, educating them and turning them into citizens.

Here's my call for a "BDS" of Russia. Of course, it will never happen. Outrages by the Left are not subject to condemnation. Instead, in the West, we eat our own.

Edited May 4, 2014 by jbg

[Bryan]

I don't think those scenarios relate to each other in the way you are trying to link them. I haven't seen any evidence that Crimeans want the Russians to leave. That's a stark contrast to the situation in Palestine.

[-TSS-]

I honestly don't give a flying f*** about Palestine. In contrast I am very worried about this Ukraine crisis because there is no way of telling how it could escalate.

[Bryan]

I honestly don't give a flying f*** about Palestine.

A lot of people share your sentiment. That's a large part of why the situation has become the way it is.

[jbg]

I don't think those scenarios relate to each other in the way you are trying to link them. I haven't seen any evidence that Crimeans want the Russians to leave. That's a stark contrast to the situation in Palestine.

I haven't seen any evidence that the so-called "Palestinians" have an exclusive right to the land either.

[Bryan]

I haven't seen any evidence that the so-called "Palestinians" have an exclusive right to the land either.

By that criteria, I guess no one has exclusive right to any land.

[bush_cheney2004]

By that criteria, I guess no one has exclusive right to any land.

True...nobody has the exclusive right to land, but they can defend what is ultimately temporary possession.

[jbg]

By that criteria, I guess no one has exclusive right to any land.

What do you think would happen to any Jews living in a state administered by "Palestinians"?

[Bryan]

True...nobody has the exclusive right to land, but they can defend what is ultimately temporary possession.

Aye. Possession is eleven points in the law, and they say there are but twelve.

[Bryan]

What do you think would happen to any Jews living in a state administered by "Palestinians"?

Now? They'd probably treat the Jews almost as badly as the Jews are treating them.

[jbg]

Now? They'd probably treat the Jews almost as badly as the Jews are treating them.

I don't believe that the Jews are in there lopping peoples' heads off. If the Palestinians took over there would be a bloodletting.

[Bryan]

>>edit .. thread drift... stopping now<<

Edited May 4, 2014 by Bryan

[jbg]

Responding to your originally posted message the Israelis are not engaging in a deliberate massacre.

And back to thread, Russia mounted a major atrocity in Ukraine, the Holodomer, last time it controlled the region.

[GostHacked]

I haven't seen any evidence that the so-called "Palestinians" have an exclusive right to the land either.

You do not even have the right to live where you are now. That can be taken away by your government through whatever means they deem necessary.

But by the same argument Jews do not have an exclusive right to the land either.

And how the hell does this turn into a Pal-Isreal debate when we are talking about Ukraine??

Edited May 4, 2014 by GostHacked

[jbg]

And how the hell does this turn into a Pal-Isreal debate when we are talking about Ukraine??

Responding to the posts of others, and pointing out the hypocrisy of those who condemn Israel but have little energy to condemn other alleged conquerors.

[GostHacked]

Responding to the posts of others, and pointing out the hypocrisy of those who condemn Israel but have little energy to condemn other alleged conquerors.

The people that complain about that the most, have every opportunity to create a thread regarding those topics. But that does not happen often. Why?

[GostHacked]

The IMF is holding the carrot to Ukraine with conditions. Take the bail out money, if you can keep the east of the country secure. This is putting Ukraine in a hard position and forcing them to go toe to toe with Russia.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101631226

In a staff report on the aid program, published Thursday, the IMF added that a change to eastern Ukraine's borders could force it to adjust its bailout.

"The unfolding developments in the east and tense relations with Russia could severely disrupt bilateral trade and depress investment confidence for a considerable period of time, thus worsening the economic outlook," it said.

[Big Guy]

Interesting and I believe impartial opinion at:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/ukraine-lies-propaganda-west-age-20145384527678726.html

[Shady]

It's only a matter if time before Russian tanks roll over the border. To "protect" Russian nationals.

[-TSS-]

We've already learned to take all news-stories from Russian sources with a pinch of salt and rightly so too. What many of us have yet to learn is to do likewise with news from western sources as well.

[Smallc]

It's not quite the same thing though. That should be obvious.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Smallc

[Shady]

We've already learned to take all news-stories from Russian sources with a pinch of salt and rightly so too. What many of us have yet to learn is to do likewise with news from western sources as well.

Russia doesn't have a free press. So as Smallc has already stated. The two aren't equivalent. However Putin would love for everyone to think so.

[Wayward Son]

We've already learned to take all news-stories from Russian sources with a pinch of salt and rightly so too. What many of us have yet to learn is to do likewise with news from western sources as well.

I take western news sources with a pinch of salt. I take Russian sources like RT as flat out government propaganda which deserve far more skepticism than a pinch of salt.