Ukraine crisis

[bleeding heart]

It's not a "Jewish thing." Anti-Semitism is simply one of the many, many problems with the far-right autocrats, who were leading members of the recent opposition and are now ensconced within the Ukrainian political system.

They're now "the good guys," whereas a whiff of even possible anti-Semitism in other discussion is met with a lot more hostility.

I'm not completely sure why the disconnect....but I suspect it's because when the glorious, inherently noble "West" decides to back somebody....by God, we will call them "good guys" no matter what their natural inclinations might be.

[eyeball]

Look at how good a guy Putin was for awhile there. A new bff if there ever was one.

It's clearly the west that's all over the map - we run real hot then cold then hot again when it comes to who we're with or not or why. Like chicken with it's head cut off.

[Big Guy]

I do not have access to impartial information coming directly from the ground in Ukraine so I depend on expert surrogates who appear to be impartial for news and views. There is an interesting article in the Toronto Star ;

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/04/11/does_canada_really_care_about_ukraine.html

that is taking a different twist on the crisis.

Looks like the Russians are telling the EU that if it is luring the Ukraine from Russian influence then it better be ready to pay for the Ukraine debt to Russia for gas. Now that Russia has stopped the Ukraine “discount” and Ukraine is running out of money the country is going into $billions in debt. Do the Russians have the right to turn the tap off for non payment? Is Canada going to give Canadian taxpayer funds to the Ukraine which ends up in Russian coffers? I hope not.

Also from the article, I am not sure that Canada should be supporting the Pravy Sektor if it is indeed the force controlling Kiev and putting the squeeze on their parliament.

Can the EU afford to pay Ukraine bills to Russia? Just what power does the Pravy Sektor have in Kiev? Is the information in the article that I have referenced considered credible?

[ASIP]

BG,

The professor, who wrote the article is not well informed or intentionally distorted facts (please read comments to the article). Pravy Sector is not a part of Ukrainian government. Moreover, there are significant disagreements between the two. Pravy Sector in no way controls Kiev and it has negligible power to squeeze the parliament.

As for the gas supply. Exact details of the contract are unknown. What I know that Russia is known for bullying and lying. I do not think Russia will turn the tap off (they have tried that twice before, it did not work).

Debt for the gas does probably, exists, but it is manageable. Payments do flow. Yes, Ukraine is asking for money, but not exclusively to pay for Russian gas. The former president and his gang drained Ukrainian coffers. Russia now forces Ukraine to do painful military spending. Ukraine needs a couple of years of peace to recover to normal life.

I think that Canada's financial help to Ukraine is not worse than throwing money into the bottomless pit called UNO.

Can the EU afford to pay Ukraine bills to Russia? Just what power does the Pravy Sektor have in Kiev? Is the information in the article that I have referenced considered credible?

1. Yes.

2. Some but not critical. They actually are moving towards being a civilized parliamentarian party.

3. Information itself is generally correct, however, it is not complete and there is a bias of the author.

[Argus]

I suggest we just leave it "we agree to disagree".

Because this is just your opinion.

WWWTT

No, I'll leave it at "You're completely and utterly wrong and entirely ignorant about the realities of life over there"

How's that?

[Argus]

Sure, Rue, I'm not disagreeing with you fundamentally. (I also agree that Stalin was as bad as Hitler...Hitler has come to symbolize the awful evil of aggressive and murderous dictatorial regimes....but plenty of men have fit to varying degrees into a similar mold.)

I'm only saying that the rise of neo-fascist anti-semites into high positions of Ukrainian political power--a concern for reasonable people through much of Europe, and for quite some time--is not something to be cavalier about. They saw their opportunity for political power and they seized it.

This isn't an excuse for Russian behavior; I don't even hint at such a thing.

I'm saying that the idea that the Ukrainian government are "the good guys" is a simplistic notion which verges on apologetics for Jew-hating fascist sympathizers.

You know, the Svboda party got less votes last election than the Communists, and have fewer seats in parliament. How come you're not concerned about Communists? And btw, they are both minorities in parliament and in government.

[WWWTT]

No, I'll leave it at "You're completely and utterly wrong and entirely ignorant about the realities of life over there"

How's that?

How's what?

I know you already think that to be true, I'm not going to debate it with you anymore!

I can explain it to you another way if you like?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Here's a little reality for those who can't exactly remember how history really went!

Mind you, this was the USSR, not Russia!

WWWTT

[ASIP]

Mind you, this was the USSR, not Russia!

WWWTT

Yes, at least in the USSR neo Nazi sentiments were not existent. Not the case in modern Russia.

There are lots of images of Russian neo Nazis in the internet. Antisemitism was a policy in the USSR until its end and is still deeply embedded in the mentality of Russian rednecks.

[Argus]

Here's a little reality for those who can't exactly remember how history really went!

Mind you, this was the USSR, not Russia!

WWWTT

Ah yes, the glorious USSR! The home of freedom, democracy and equality! No Nazis THERE!

Of course, the Communists managed to slaughter tens of millions, but hey, that's okay. They were lefties, after all!

[WWWTT]

Yes, at least in the USSR neo Nazi sentiments were not existent. Not the case in modern Russia.

There are lots of images of Russian neo Nazis in the internet. Antisemitism was a policy in the USSR until its end and is still deeply embedded in the mentality of Russian rednecks.

Same as in Canada and the US!

As far as policy goes, do you have an English link to back that one up?

WWWTT

[Argus]

Which is closer to being a fascist country, Ukraine or Russia?

Certainly one of the very first acts of the new 'russian' Crimea was doing away with all independant media.


http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/03/13/crying-fascist-on-ukraine/

[ASIP]

As far as policy goes, do you have an English link to back that one up?

Communist party of Soviet Union did not use English in their documents. Do you think that this is a proof of no Antisemitism in the USSR?

Though, you may try Google:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union

[Rue]

I appreciate Bleedings' response to me which I believe closes our discussion down very well. Its a side tangent which I am not sure is helpful. The Soviets had no fondness for Jews or Ukrainians or Poles and massacred them all and there were of course Poles and Ukrainians who hated Jews. In Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania a lot of people hated Jews doesn't mean they were not man-handled by the Soviets. Bulgaria had a King sympathetic to Jews but citizens who detested Jews and sided with the Nazis over it. I mean we can look at anti-Semitism but its not part of the Ukrainian crisis right now and to say it is-is just not accurate.

I for one applauded the Ukrainian government making a strong overture to Israel to put the painful past aside. It was very much like when Lach Walesa did the same with Poland or Havel in the Czech Republic. Some Eastern countries when they came out of the Soviet constellation were better able to discuss the anti-Semitism and Nazi occupations in their countries in a way they could not with the Soviet anti semitiic KGB watching over everyone.

Lech Walesa and the original Ukrainian leader were welcomed in Israel and the leader of the Czech Republic was very admired in Israel. Konrad Adenhauer the first Chancellor of Germany after WW2 was a major figure in trying to enable healing between holocaust survivors in Israel and Germany as was Willy Brandt later on.

I mean we can spend years on the topic but it distracts from the issue in the Ukraine now where Ukrainians simply want a country and I do not think they have to justify wanting independence or defend themselves as not being anti-semites. They have in a healthy way confronted their past head on and Israel already thanked them for that, Enough said. No we deal present tense.

I believe Putin is deliberately creating chaos with agitators to try incite a civil war in the Ukraine. I think Ukrainians are more than aware of his Hitlerian-Stalinesque tactics. His attempts at placing agitators in zones close to the Russian border is not working. Its transparent.

The Ukraine will be crippled and splintered by Russia but it will survive. We are talking about a people occupied for centuries and never lost their culture. We are talking of a people who saw millions forcefully starved and they never gave up.

If I may I equate Ukrainians to the Irish in a good way. They both had to survive famines. Once you do that nothing a politician can do will frighten you-nothing. Jews are the same way. Certain ethnic peoples have that in them. Their history lowered them to the darkest pits of despair and they had to overcome to survive. Once a people goes through that they survive and no little tyrant can scare them. Putin is just one in a long line of pathetic tin pot tyrants the Ukrainians have encountered. He won't be the last. They will deal with him. Russians think they can drink anyone under the table figuratively speaking. Wrong people. Ukrainians are to vodka what the Irish are to whiskey, Wrong people to mess with.

[WWWTT]

Here's a link that's going to really stir the pot in this thread!

http://syncreticstudies.com/2014/04/11/castrated-kiev-junta-buckles-military-refuses-orders/

According to the link, it looks like the military is disobeying the Junta government in Kiev!

We'll see what happens there.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Here's a couple more links that's going to turn some heads to say the least!

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/

And then this one!

http://www.debka.com/article/23841/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

Looks like the entire Ukraine is going to be another Russian province at this rate!

WWWTT

[ASIP]

Here's a link that's going to really stir the pot in this thread!

http://syncreticstudies.com/2014/04/11/castrated-kiev-junta-buckles-military-refuses-orders/

Plain and simple - BS!

Here's a couple more links that's going to turn some heads to say the least!

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/

And then this one!

http://www.debka.com/article/23841/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

Looks like the entire Ukraine is going to be another Russian province at this rate!

WWWTT

Facts are generally correct, but not exactly. It's a semi-truth.

[WWWTT]

Plain and simple - BS!

Facts are generally correct, but not exactly. It's a semi-truth.

Maybe?

Not sure but it looks like things there are changing at a fast rate and may not be as so solid as some may think here in the west!

Just have to wait and see. This story is constantly changing, and changing for the worse for Ukraine.

WWWTT

[-TSS-]

It's an extremely worrying development. Here in Finland a lot of Russians buy land here in Finland even though we would be perfectly entitled under EU-laws to ban such purchases by people from non-EU countries, which is what most EU-countries do. We in Finland blindly believe that the proximity to Russia will help to vitalize our economy too and perhaps it will but at what price? Russians are easily the fastest growing group of immigrants in Finland and soon their number will overtake that of our traditional minority, the Swedish-speakers.

Experience has shown that having too large Russian-speaking minorities can be a dangerous thing, especially if you are not in NATO. Putler may want to come and protect his fellow countrymen.

[Big Guy]

More and more administrative sites in more and more cities in Eastern Ukraine are being taken over by anti-Kiev protestors. Perhaps it is time for the UN to send in peace keeping troops to organize and supervise referendums in each Oblast to ascertain to desire of the majority in each “province” . The general line separating the different points of view appear to run along the old pre-1939 annexation of territory to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

Why would Kiev want to hold on to territory in which the majority of people wanted out of Ukraine either as an independent or part of Russia.

With the UN involved perhaps we could get an accurate idea of the feelings of the population.

Under current conditions, if NATO gets involved, I hope that Canada does not get drawn into this confused conflict.

[Argus]

More and more administrative sites in more and more cities in Eastern Ukraine are being taken over by anti-Kiev protestors. Perhaps it is time for the UN to send in peace keeping troops to organize and supervise referendums in each Oblast to ascertain to desire of the majority in each “province” . The general line separating the different points of view appear to run along the old pre-1939 annexation of territory to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

Why would Kiev want to hold on to territory in which the majority of people wanted out of Ukraine either as an independent or part of Russia.

Why would Putin murder tens of thousands of people to hold onto territory where the majority of people didn't want to be part of Russia?

Dunno, but he sure did, and continues to do so.

Russian speakers move to Ukraine and then decide they want that territory to be part of Russia. Am I the only one who has a problem with that? It's not like they can even suggest the land was once part of Russia, like Crimea was.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Argus

[-TSS-]

Putin must be enjoying the situation enormously. Ukraine is no match for Russia and the USA is doing its best to find an honourable excuse not to get involved in a conflict where none of its interests are at stake. If only Clinton hadn't signed that treaty 20 years ago...

[ASIP]

territory in which the majority of people wanted out of Ukraine either as an independent or part of Russia.

Not true.

The two Oblasts (regions) where seizures happens are depression regions, they are not self-sustained. These are home regions of Yanukovich.

"Protests" are the struggle of the hard-core mafia to keep the old system of corruption that the Kiev government is trying to shutter. Local police is a part of that mafia system. It is few mafia kings, not people, who want "independence" from Kiev.

[iolo]

It is just an attempt by 'the West' to take over some of Russian capitalism's territory, the usual old capitalist rubbish. People here are getting bored with this game.

Edited April 15, 2014 by iolo

[Big Guy]

The first mistake by the "new" government in Kiev was to rescind the law that made Russian an official language, even though that’s the language of many of its citizens. What message did that send to those Russian speakers who lived near to the Russian border?

I wonder what would happen in Quebec and the separatist movement if a next minority government decided to abolish French as one of the official languages? What would be the reaction in New Brunswick and the pockets of French speaking communities in Manitoba and Ontario where francophones make up about five percent of the population?

I can understand why many of those Russian speaking people who voted for the previous legitimately elected government (which certainly did not indicate that Russian was to be diminished as a language) are upset and distrustful of this new government in Kiev. I also believe that until the current government can guarantee the existence and culture of the Russian speaking regions of the Ukraine that unrest will continue and many may seek protection in/from Russia.