Ukraine crisis

[bleeding heart]

Well, at least two matters here are close to self-evident: the Russian incursion has not been legitimate; and the Ukranian government has been infiltrated by people with (explicitly) fascist sympathies.

I'm not sure why it has to be one or the other; both are virtual truisms, as far as I can tell.

I'm not sure why anyone would sympathize with Putin, nor can I understand how people view openly anti-Semitic neo-fascists as "the good guys."

[Big Guy]

Latest news;

"Pro-Russian protesters seize govt buildings in Ukraine's Donetsk, Lugansk and Kharkov". When there were protests in Kiev that led to a change in the government of the Ukraine, the West spin was that it was democracy in action. The Russians condemned it as a right wing illegal American orchestrated coup. Now there are protests and takeover of government buildings in major cities in Eastern Ukraine with those people demanding a referendum on independence from Kiev.

Pro-western forces will condemn this as an orchestrated Russian attempted coup while the Russians will spin this as the people demanding independence from the "illegal" Kiev government.

It would be refreshing if there was an impartial way to take the political pulse of the majority in those areas. I see different passionate opinions shared on this board by posters who are accepting the "facts" from their chosen surrogates and digging in while impervious to any other point of view. That process is a waste of time and does nothing to advance the knowledge of the reality of what is really happening there on the ground.

Unfortunately, too many people have already decided which side wears the black hats and which side have the white hats and the conversation has polarized into verbal finger pointing.

[Bryan]

If the reasoning is that the Crimea used to be Russian then the next logical step would be that Russia invades Alaska to get it back to Russia.

The population of Alaska is not majority Russian openly campaigning to join Russia and actively seeking Russia's help to protect them from the US.

[bleeding heart]

Big Guy:

I agree; as you see, I was making fundamentally the same point.

[WWWTT]

Well, at least two matters here are close to self-evident: the Russian incursion has not been legitimate; and the Ukranian government has been infiltrated by people with (explicitly) fascist sympathies.

I'm not sure why it has to be one or the other; both are virtual truisms, as far as I can tell.

I'm not sure why anyone would sympathize with Putin, nor can I understand how people view openly anti-Semitic neo-fascists as "the good guys."

That's your opinion.

The Russians lost the most lives ever in the fight against nazis. This is a fact not opinion! (see Stalingrad for details)

From what I see, this fight against the nazis is not over.

WWWTT

[eyeball]

Unfortunately, too many people have already decided which side wears the black hats and which side have the white hats and the conversation has polarized into verbal finger pointing.

The hats all look off grey to me.

[bleeding heart]

WWWTT,

That the Russians were hugely important in the fight against the Nazis, and underwent terrific national sacrifice, changes not a single note of what I've said.

I think Canada has done many fine and excellent things; that doesn't mean that, by some magical moral extrapolation, Canada was not involved in the illegal overthrow of the democratically-elected leader of Haiti. Canada was involved.

Lots of countries have done lots of things which we can admire, condone, what have you. And they also tend to do terrible things....and I see no reason for any geopolitical entity (ie countries) to ever get a pass for any of its bad behaviours. Including, obviously, Russia.

Edited April 7, 2014 by bleeding heart

[WWWTT]

WWWTT,

That the Russians were hugely important in the fight against the Nazis, and underwent terrific national sacrifice, changes not a single note of what I've said.

Ya I actually I believe you meant to write that it doesn't change your opinion, which is the same as what you have written.

And we agree upon that.

WWWTT

[bleeding heart]

Why, when we are all continually offering our opinions, does the uncontroversial fact that something is "just [my] opinion" suddenly become a fighting jab?

To state that my opinion is, well, my opinion....is not a debating point. You might also point out that I'm an East-coast Canadian who likes cats.

(On second thought, those might actually be legitimate critiques....)

[Argus]

That's your opinion.

The Russians lost the most lives ever in the fight against nazis. This is a fact not opinion! (see Stalingrad for details)

From what I see, this fight against the nazis is not over.

WWWTT

The Russians lost the most lives because they were run by a bloody dictator who thought nothing (literally nothing) of throwing untrained constcript armies at the Germans for the sole purpose of slowing them down a little. Russia didn't care how many lives were lost. Their leaders were worse thant he Nazis, in many respects.

As far as fascist behaviour goes, you will find far, far more of that in Moscow than in Kyev. They just don't call it that.

[WWWTT]

The Russians lost the most lives because they were run by a bloody dictator who thought nothing (literally nothing) of throwing untrained constcript armies at the Germans for the sole purpose of slowing them down a little. Russia didn't care how many lives were lost. Their leaders were worse thant he Nazis, in many respects.

As far as fascist behaviour goes, you will find far, far more of that in Moscow than in Kyev. They just don't call it that.

Ya that's right!

Ever thought that the Russians may be concerned that a neighbouring country has a nazi government?

As far as the rest of your comment goes, its mostly biased speculation!

WWWTT

[Rue]

Thanks Rue, I found that long winded "link-less" comment humorous!

Here's a link bringing us back to the Ukraine crisis!

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-neo-nazis-stepan-bandera-and-the-legacy-of-world-war-ii/5373773

Looks like many people are concerned of the nazi connection in the Ukraine!

Can't blame them either considering what they want to do!

WWWTT

Right so now you want to slur the majority of Ukrainians as Nazis because they want to be independent? Is that your response?

Who is the "many people"? You?

This tactic of taking the majority of the people of the Ukraine and inferring they are Nazis because they want independence is b.s.

The Ukraine government and certain citizens supported the Nazis during WW2 yes. They were anti-communist and anti-semitic. The Russians were just as anti-semitic and so was Germany.

The point is all its people during WW2 were selected for collective starvation because of that.

Please don't lecture me on Nazis or Ukrainians who supported the,. I had family killed in the Ukraine outside Kiev.

What does that make all Ukrainians today Nazis? what nonsense. Does that mean the next generation I should hate and write off as Nazis because they want independence from Russia? what the 300,000 Jews in Ukraine who support Ukrainian independence are Nazis?

Nonsense.

The anti-semitism in the Ukraine today is not limited tojust Ukrainians who want independence and never was. I could easily make the same b.s. argument that anyone who supports Putin is an anti-semite. Look who supports him. Take a good look. Here is the point. anti-semites like any bigots come in all political parties, ideologies, nationalities. They are not particular to any one particular group so stop trying to smeer all Ukrainians who want to be independent as Nazis they are not. The Ukrainian community has reached out to the Jewish ones in many cities and to Israel. We have worked hard to deal with out past and share our common pain and suffering. The conflict with Russia is not about Ukrainian Nazis. It is about the Ukrainian people not wanting to be controlled by Putin's Stalinesque government. Period. Some people in the Ukraine are anti-semitic just as some in Russia are. Not that you would know but anti-semitism continues to exist for complex reasons which I doubt you would understand nor is the point of this thread.

The average Ukrainian wants to be Ukrainian. That does not make them a Nazi and please don't suggest to me you are concerned about anti-semitism in the Ukraine. If so start a thread on it.

Putin is more of a Nazi than any Ukrainian citizen wanting independence. His apperatus of power and authority is pure Stalinesque and the difference between Stalin and Hitler is what?

They both referred to themselves as socialists. They both considered themselves defenders of the fatherland. They both surrounded themselves with sycophants and weaklings. Putin is just a well dressed Saadam Hussein. The only thing different different between him and Stalin, Hitler or Hussein is his lack of mustache. Give him time. he's been trying to grow one, its just he can't. From what I understand his former wife had him beat in that category.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Rue

[WWWTT]

Well it looks like that there is now another part of the Ukraine breaking off to form it's own country and may join up with Russia.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/726844

I think this thread is going to get busy!

WWWTT

[Big Guy]

I just watched that donnybrook at the Ukrainian Parliament meeting. Difficult to differentiate between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" when the fists started flying. These guys better get their act together if they want to be viewed as a legitimate democracy rather than a third world rabble. At this sensitive time they have to be seen as a stable and serious legitimate democracy.

[Shady]

Well it looks like that there is now another part of the Ukraine breaking off to form it's own country and may join up with Russia.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/726844

I think this thread is going to get busy!

WWWTT

They're paid protestors purposely subverting eastern Ukraine. It's Putin's way of Crimea-ing Kiev.

[Argus]

Ya that's right!

Ever thought that the Russians may be concerned that a neighbouring country has a nazi government?

As far as the rest of your comment goes, its mostly biased speculation!

WWWTT

No, it's basic history. You ever read any?

The Russians were never and are not now concerned with fascism in Ukraine. As I said, they are, in all but name, a fascist government themselves. The idea they would be worried about potential human rights abuses elsewhere is laughable.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Argus

[Shady]

I just watched that donnybrook at the Ukrainian Parliament meeting. Difficult to differentiate between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" when the fists started flying. These guys better get their act together if they want to be viewed as a legitimate democracy rather than a third world rabble. At this sensitive time they have to be seen as a stable and serious legitimate democracy.

You keep pushing this nonsense about not being able to tell who the good guys are. That's just an excuse for Putin's ridiculous annexation. Even if they're a "third world rabble", it doesn't give Putin the right to take it as his own. Where are you getting that from?

[WWWTT]

No, it's basic history. You ever read any?

The Russians were never and are not now concerned with fascism in Ukraine. As I said, they are, in all but name, a fascist government themselves. The idea they would be worried about potential human rights abuses elsewhere is laughable.

I suggest we just leave it "we agree to disagree".

Because this is just your opinion.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

They're paid protestors purposely subverting eastern Ukraine. It's Putin's way of Crimea-ing Kiev.

I heard that about the protests and violence that started this to get the government thrown out, substituted for the nazi party of Ukraine.

WWWTT

[Big Guy]

You keep pushing this nonsense about not being able to tell who the good guys are. That's just an excuse for Putin's ridiculous annexation. Even if they're a "third world rabble", it doesn't give Putin the right to take it as his own. Where are you getting that from?

Interesting viewpoint. Perhaps you can tell me; Who were the good guys, the legislators who were throwing punches or the ones who were absorbing punches? As to the "legitimacy" of that "annexing" or "invading" or "liberating" (depending on your point of view), history has shown that in most cases right is might and might is right. It appears to me that this will be the case in that region. Most countries in that region have had their boundaries changed many times by whoever proved to be the strongest at the time.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Big Guy

[bleeding heart]

As for "good guys" and "bad guys"....well, I have no problem at all viewing Putin as a "bad guy."

However, it appears that many of the critics of Putin consider the anti-Semitic, far-right fascist sympathizers in the Ukrainian government to be the "good guys." (Apparently, they're also the ones who started the Parliamentary brawl, by the way.)

A real triumph of propaganda! Practically a textbook case.

Edited April 8, 2014 by bleeding heart

[Rue]

As for "good guys" and "bad guys"....well, I have no problem at all viewing Putin as a "bad guy."

However, it appears that many of the critics of Putin consider the anti-Semitic, far-right fascist sympathizers in the Ukrainian government to be the "good guys." (Apparently, they're also the ones who started the Parliamentary brawl, by the way.)

A real triumph of propaganda! Practically a textbook case.

Do you agree it is b.s. to claim ordinary Ukrainians that want their nation to be independent and free of Russian control are not all far right facist nazis and anti semites?

Surely you don't think the 300,000 Jews standing side by side their fellow Ukrainians are right wing fascist anti semitic Nazi sympathizers?

My point is clear. The minority of extreme right wing Ukrainians who hate Russians do not typify nor should they be passed off as being the typical Ukrainian who seeks to be free of Russian oppression.

What Putin is doing in the Ukraine now is exactly what Hitler did when Hitler sent German nationals into Czechoslovakia, and Austria to cause riots to justify the invasion of the German army.

Putin is repeating the play book of Hitler and Stalin. Its the same old b.s. of Hitler and Stalin and that is why I totally agree with Argus on this.

Call Russia what you want, but if there is anyone being Nazi or Stalinesque its Putin and as far as I am concerned Stalin and Hitler were no different.

Besides the bad hair cuts and mustaches they both engaged in the same politics of oppression and mass genocide and yes I think Putin is no different. It is only a matter of time until he engages in some massacre and blames it on the West.

Putin is a pathetic thug. He can sense at the moment The EEC and the US will not stop him. he's going to try destroy the Ukraine and move next on Georgia and the Balkan states. It aint rocket science to see where he's headed.

[WWWTT]

Do you agree it is b.s. to claim ordinary Ukrainians that want their nation to be independent and free of Russian control are not all far right facist nazis and anti semites?

Surely you don't think the 300,000 Jews standing side by side their fellow Ukrainians are right wing fascist anti semitic Nazi sympathizers?

My point is clear. The minority of extreme right wing Ukrainians who hate Russians do not typify nor should they be passed off as being the typical Ukrainian who seeks to be free of Russian oppression.

You could be right Rue!

After all the Ukraine is a democracy.

We'll see what happens come their next election.

WWWTT

[bleeding heart]

Sure, Rue, I'm not disagreeing with you fundamentally. (I also agree that Stalin was as bad as Hitler...Hitler has come to symbolize the awful evil of aggressive and murderous dictatorial regimes....but plenty of men have fit to varying degrees into a similar mold.)

I'm only saying that the rise of neo-fascist anti-semites into high positions of Ukrainian political power--a concern for reasonable people through much of Europe, and for quite some time--is not something to be cavalier about. They saw their opportunity for political power and they seized it.

This isn't an excuse for Russian behavior; I don't even hint at such a thing.

I'm saying that the idea that the Ukrainian government are "the good guys" is a simplistic notion which verges on apologetics for Jew-hating fascist sympathizers.

Count me out.

I have no problem at all with the parts of the Ukrainian government who aren't a bunch of opportunist, racist thugs. Only those who are...and they hold high-level positions.

Edited April 9, 2014 by bleeding heart

[GostHacked]

Why is this turning into a Jewish thing?