WWWTT Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Well of course man being afraid of death and looking for answers has created all sorts of myths and legends to help answer the questions they had about their universe but since science is now answering many of the questions they have the trend towards common sense and atheism is rapidly growing worldwide so no, 10,000 years is a ridiculous guess. Suppose you are a fundamentalist? More like man in power afraid of uprisings looking for longlasting power has created all sorts of myths and legends! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 No, I am a pagan. Atheism is just another religion, not the absence of religion. Illogical statement. Not believing in something is not a belief. WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 My personal opinion: religion will never go away (entirely) unless we become omniscient. Abrahamic and Eastern religions are just the modern counterparts of a system of belief that has existed within us for 25,000 years. They'll just be replaced with something else unless knowledge can unequivocally answer the metaphysical questions that have persisted since we gained consciousness. Call me a cynic, but that's what I think. I'd like to see the link to back up the belief that religion or "beliefs" existed 25 000yrs ago! Oh ya, a cave painting and the pyramids. There's your proof! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I'd like to see the link to back up the belief that religion or "beliefs" existed 25 000yrs ago! Oh ya, a cave painting and the pyramids. There's your proof! WWWTT Not to mention atheism has also existed throughout this time. There has been nonsense and people who reject that nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'd like to see the link to back up the belief that religion or "beliefs" existed 25 000yrs ago! Oh ya, a cave painting and the pyramids. There's your proof! WWWTT How do you explain pre-historic grave sites? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 How do you explain pre-historic grave sites? Grave sites = religion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Grave sites = religion? We know that some things were revered. These types of figures have turned-up all over the place. https://www.google.com/search?q=venus+willendorf+statue&num=30&hl=en&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ymXKUpi-GIfroAT-7oCQDg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1335&bih=512 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Willendorf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Grave sites = religion? Why else would anyone put the effort into creating a burial site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Why else would anyone put the effort into creating a burial site? I'm an atheist and I can see plenty of other reasons for burial sites. Rituals do not always have to be religious. I'm also not saying that the burial sites were not religious. You were making the claim and I was merely asking you to back up your claims. You didn't, btw. Could burial sites be a convenient place to dispose of bodies? Could they be a place to go and remember loved ones? Could they believe that their site is a place of rest? That's not necessarily religious, but certainly might be superstitious. Are superstitions always religious in nature? I don't think you can say burial sites are always religious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 We know that some things were revered. These types of figures have turned-up all over the place. https://www.google.com/search?q=venus+willendorf+statue&num=30&hl=en&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ymXKUpi-GIfroAT-7oCQDg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1335&bih=512 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Willendorf I'm not saying they weren't religious sites. But I think jumping to the conclusion that people only bury their dead if they're religious is unfounded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm not saying they weren't religious sites. But I think jumping to the conclusion that people only bury their dead if they're religious is unfounded. Oh, certainly. As in Casino...you never know how many holes the desert holds. Ceremonial burial is thought of as a seed of religion, though. Plus ancient humans seemed to have a thing for big chicks with...huge tracks of land. Olaf: Why are we burying Kallath's beautiful silver ax with him?? Ragnar: He'll need it to fight with in Valhalla. ...etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm an atheist and I can see plenty of other reasons for burial sites. Rituals do not always have to be religious. I'm also not saying that the burial sites were not religious. You were making the claim and I was merely asking you to back up your claims. You didn't, btw. Could burial sites be a convenient place to dispose of bodies? Could they be a place to go and remember loved ones? Could they believe that their site is a place of rest? That's not necessarily religious, but certainly might be superstitious. Are superstitions always religious in nature? I don't think you can say burial sites are always religious. Not all burial sites are religious. However the existance of grave sites and cerimonial burial rituals are very stong evidence for the existance of religion in prehistoric times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Not all burial sites are religious. However the existance of grave sites and cerimonial burial rituals are very stong evidence for the existance of religion in prehistoric times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion Elephants have grave sites. Does that mean they have religion too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Elephants have grave sites. Does that mean they have religion too? Ceremonial burial. Are elephants sprinkling graves with flower petals, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Ceremonial burial. Are elephants sprinkling graves with flower petals, etc? There are lots of ceremonies that don't involve religion. There are funerals or "celebrations of life" that are not religion. Just like there are marriage ceremonies that don't involve religion. Ceremonies are inherently cultural, not inherently religious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 There are lots of ceremonies that don't involve religion. There are funerals or "celebrations of life" that are not religion. Just like there are marriage ceremonies that don't involve religion. Ceremonies are inherently cultural, not inherently religious. In ancient humans? Unlikely. Thunder scared them. As well, 'celebrations of life' often go on and on re: spirituality of some sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Reefer is right. There are all sorts of cultural ceremonies that have nothing to do with religion. Also about elephants scattering flower petals, they actually do, yes. Edited January 7, 2014 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Reefer is right. There are all sorts of cultural ceremonies that have nothing to do with religion. Also about elephants scattering flower petals, they actually do, yes. So, in your opinion, when did religion emerge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I'm not saying there wasn't religion then, but burial sites are not necessarily enough to show religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Reefer is right. There are all sorts of cultural ceremonies that have nothing to do with religion. Also about elephants scattering flower petals, they actually do, yes. Yes...I've always found that interesting about elephants. They're not religious. But, they're also not human. Perhaps this says more about humans as animals than elephants as being religious. Keep in mind I'm an atheist playing Devil's advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I'm not saying there wasn't religion then, but burial sites are not necessarily enough to show religion. So everyone agrees that religion has been a part of humanity for at least the last 25,000 years? The world of elephants is indeed fascinating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_intelligence#Death_ritual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) So everyone agrees that religion has been a part of humanity for at least the last 25,000 years? Organized religion? Not likely.... Supernatural superstitions? Possibly... Why don't you link to a scholarly article rather than just making claims? Edited January 7, 2014 by The_Squid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Organized religion? Not likely.... Supernatural superstitions? Possibly... Why don't you link to a scholarly article rather than just making claims? Why would you even bring up "organized religion"? Can you think of anything that was organized in pre-history? The existence of religious beliefs in pre-history is the prevalent theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology_of_religion If you are claiming otherwise then it is up to you to provide evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I have no evidence of ancient humanity having organized religion, but it would make sense. We are social and tribal animals, and pretty much all religions are strongly tribal. Why wouldn't our forefathers use religion as well as blood realtionships to bind themselves to mutual advantage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Why would you even bring up "organized religion"? Can you think of anything that was organized in pre-history? Yes, I can. People organized themselves into groups even in ancient times. The existence of religious beliefs in pre-history is the prevalent theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology_of_religion Where in your wiki article does it say what you claim it says? I like this guy's take on it, although it is an opinion piece. It is also backed up with some references. http://genealogyreligion.net/do-hominid-burials-indicate-a-belief-in-spirits-or-souls We have even less justification asserting that deliberate burials represent a “cult” or “religious” practice. We simply have no way of knowing what these hominids were thinking. Fairly soon after death (especially when temperatures are above freezing), bodies begin to bloat, rot, and stink. They turn ghastly colors and begin decaying in revolting ways. Dead bodies may also attract dangerous predators and bothersome scavengers, and they certainly attract insects, bacteria, and vermin. It may simply be the case that bodies were buried to avoid these unpleasantries and keep the home-base or camp-site clean. This is most plausible and parsimonious explanation for deliberate burials. It is of course always possible that bodies were buried because the clan was concerned about the deceased’s spirit or soul and wanted to show respect of some sort. However, we should be careful about projecting our own practices and sensibilities into the Paleolithic. If you are claiming otherwise then it is up to you to provide evidence. And what claim did I make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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