Nelson Mandela, an icon of freedom, tolerance and equality, dies at 95

[jbg]

Just as the allies targeted German and Japanese civilians in WWII in order to do everything they could to win the war, lest the world fall under the dominion of those regimes. In sufficiently dire situations, targeting civilians can be justifiable. Presumably, the struggle of black South Africans against oppression is an example of such a situation. The tactics employed by Mandela are what we would call "terrorist" tactics, but as many have pointed out, terrorism has become a largely meaningless word. What matters is whether a given set of actions was justifiable or not.

I disagree with the WW II analogy. It is true that Hiroshima and Nagasaki targeted civilians. There the choice was "civilian deaths or civilian deaths" since a Normandy-style invasion of Japan would have created far greater military and civilian casualties than were caused by the atom bomb attacks.

[dre]

I disagree with the WW II analogy. It is true that Hiroshima and Nagasaki targeted civilians. There the choice was "civilian deaths or civilian deaths" since a Normandy-style invasion of Japan would have created far greater military and civilian casualties than were caused by the atom bomb attacks.

There was no reason to invade Japan. They were effectively blockaded, and they had lost control of their airspace. And if the Potsdam declaration had not demanded the removal of the Emperor they would have already surrendered at that point.

Im not one bit suprised to see you using revisionist history to justify terrorism.

Edited December 12, 2013 by dre

[jbg]

There was no reason to invade Japan. They were effectively blockaded, and they had lost control of their airspace. And if the Potsdam declaration had not demanded the removal of the Emperor they would have already surrendered at that point.

Im not one bit suprised to see you using revisionist history to justify terrorism.

I take great exception. Pearl Harbor was in my country. It was attacked. That was cassus belli.

[bush_cheney2004]

This tortured discussion pivoting around Mandela and moral choices/actions is fascinating. Perhaps it might be different if Canada's First Nations or U.S. Native Americans had their own successful "Mandela" ? Oh well, carry on with the moral relativism.....

[Rocky Road]

Hope.

Www.crisisofcivilization.com

[Guest Derek L]

This tortured discussion pivoting around Mandela and moral choices/actions is fascinating. Perhaps it might be different if Canada's First Nations or U.S. Native Americans had their own successful "Mandela" ? Oh well, carry on with the moral relativism.....

I thought the whole, fake, deaf signer thing, is the perfect cherry atop what is South Africa today. Both the “Western Worlds” policies towards the Apartheid Government in the 80s and the broken promises pledged by the ANC to the “Rainbow Nation” were exemplified by that fraud…..At the end of the day, the only honest group within this dance were the Bass-Ackwards Afrikaners…….at least we knew where they stood…..

As you say....carry on, fore the Casspirs, tear gas and rubber bullets surely will under the new management.......

[bush_cheney2004]

..At the end of the day, the only honest group within this dance were the Bass-Ackwards Afrikaners…….at least we knew where they stood…..

Pretty much.....I worked with several South African ex-pats in the early 2000's...they had fled the country to the U.S. for green cards. One was an ex-military Afrikaner and another was of a garden variety "Commonwealth Citizen" state of mind, even though South Africa left the Commonwealth for a spell. Both were extremely sensitive to what had happened back home and were uneasy around American "blacks". Their worlds were literally turned upside down.

Edited December 12, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[bud]

Pretty much.....I worked with several South African ex-pats in the early 2000's...they had fled the country to the U.S. for green cards. One was an ex-military Afrikaner and another was of a garden variety "Commonwealth Citizen" state of mind, even though South Africa left the Commonwealth for a spell. Both were extremely sensitive to what had happened back home and were uneasy around American "blacks". Their worlds were literally turned upside down.

get the violin out.

it's like feeling for nazi sympathizers who allowed the nazi regime to continue doing what they did.

people seem to only accept absolutes. why are some people expecting south africa to be something impossible in only 30 years? it takes generations to see real changes. life for africans is better and more just now than it was before. now it's up to them to take advantage of what mandela was able to bring, which was equality, to some degree, and take it to a better place.

Edited December 12, 2013 by bud

[bud]

some may find this interesting, where mandela talks about begin and arafat:

In Chapter 42 of his autobiography “Long Walk to Freedom,” Nelson Mandela describes how, in 1961, he began forming the African National Congress’ (ANC) military wing to launch guerrilla attacks on the apartheid regime. “I, who had never been a soldier, who had never fought in battle, who had never fired a gun at an enemy, had been given the task of starting an army. … I began in the only way I knew how, by reading and talking to experts.”

Mandela recalls that he read about Castro and Che Guevara, about Mao Tse-Tung, about the uprisings in Ethiopia, Kenya, Algeria, even about the Boer revolt against their former British rulers. He mentions three books that were crucial to his education. One was Commando by Deneys Reitz about the Boer rebellion. The second was Edgar Snow’s Red Star Over China about Mao’s revolution. And this was the third:

I read

The Revolt

by Menachem Begin and was encouraged by the fact that the Israeli leader had led a guerrilla force in a country with neither mountains nor forests, a situation similar to our own.

Interesting. It gets even more interesting when you read what Mandela told Yasser Arafat in 1990, two weeks after he was released from 27 years in prison:

There are many similarities between our struggle and that of the PLO. We live under a unique form of colonialism in South Africa, as well as in Israel…”

Mandela against apartheid, Begin against the British Mandate, Arafat against the occupation. Their differences as rebel leaders are not as important as what they had in common: All three took up arms in the cause of freedom.

[bush_cheney2004]

get the violin out.

it's like feeling for nazi sympathizers who allowed the nazi regime to continue doing what they did.

No, it needn't be complicated or nuanced. Power is power....there are those who have it and those who want it. Mandela is a compelling story for those who wish to wallow in the historical drama, and perhaps they will enjoy the film due for release this month. I was more of a Steve Biko kinda guy with more parallels to the U.S. civil rights movement. Eventually Mandela figured that out.

[bud]

are you trying to say that mandela wasn't able to achieve anything?

[bush_cheney2004]

are you trying to say that mandela wasn't able to achieve anything?

Not with his brand of "terrorism". Perhaps you know of another group that has failed with such a strategy as well.

[bud]

Not with his brand of "terrorism". Perhaps you know of another group that has failed with such a strategy as well.

everyone seems to have a brand of terrorism. you seem to have a problem with responding to terrorism with terrorism.

remind me: who is no longer living in bantustans? and who is able to vote?

[bush_cheney2004]

everyone seems to have a brand of terrorism. you seem to have a problem with responding to terrorism with terrorism.

remind me: who is no longer living in bantustans? and who is able to vote?

No problem at all, but terrorism did not win the cause in South Africa. It was economics and Cold War politics, which actually created apartheid in the first place as Dutch and British descendants engaged in class warfare. Apartheid was no longer practical if black labour was to be incorporated effectively.

Ideas for bantustans actually came from fellow commonwealth member Canada's reserve system, but South Africa needed the indigenous labour that Canada rejected.

Edited December 12, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[bud]

No problem at all, but terrorism did not win the cause in South Africa. It was economics and Cold War politics, which actually created apartheid in the first place as Dutch and British descendants engaged in class warfare. Apartheid was no longer practical if black labour was to be incorporated effectively.

Ideas for bantustans actually came from fellow commonwealth member Canada's reserve system, but South Africa needed the indigenous labour that Canada rejected.

everything happened in steps and one thing led to another. what mandela did before going to prison were the early struggles against the oppressive apartheid regime. it brought recognition to the problem and created emotion and passion. it also created a sense that something could be done against the oppressor.

you think israel would have been formed without begin, (who later became the prime minister of israel), engaging in terrorist attacks against the british and the palestinians?

wherever the ideas of bantustans came from, they were in south africa before and are now no longer. before, the blacks could not vote and now they can. your attempt at belittling what mandela achieved just doesn't measure up to facts.

Edited December 12, 2013 by bud

[On Guard for Thee]

No problem at all, but terrorism did not win the cause in South Africa. It was economics and Cold War politics, which actually created apartheid in the first place as Dutch and British descendants engaged in class warfare. Apartheid was no longer practical if black labour was to be incorporated effectively.

Ideas for bantustans actually came from fellow commonwealth member Canada's reserve system, but South Africa needed the indigenous labour that Canada rejected.

Yes you have a good point, it was in fact the terrorism as exercised by the Dutch and British there that actually lost them their cause in SA, and yes in large part because of economics. But not because, as you seem to suggest, that apartheid needed to be supplanted by slavery, but because people like me refused to buy a bottle of SA wine. And because people like Brian Mulroney had the jam to stand up to twits like Thatcher and Reagan.

[DogOnPorch]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but, weren't Thatcher and Reagan against sanctions on South Africa rather than for Apartheid?

[On Guard for Thee]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but, weren't Thatcher and Reagan against sanctions on South Africa rather than for Apartheid?

They were, especially Thatcher, against sanctions for sure. They spoke the platitudes of the day about apartheid but hell, they, and especially she, had a lot of investments to think about. Slave labor is damn healthy for the bottom line.

[Shady]

Anyone read about the bizarre translator story? The guy wasn't doing sign language at all, and said he was suffering from a schizophrenic episode.

Good thing he was only a foot away from every world leader.

[DogOnPorch]

They were, especially Thatcher, against sanctions for sure. They spoke the platitudes of the day about apartheid but hell, they, and especially she, had a lot of investments to think about. Slave labor is damn healthy for the bottom line.

Can you detail a few of these South African investments of Thatcher's for me? You seem to know a lot about it.

I was under the impression from those days that sanctions hurt black South Africans more than it did the ruling classes thus some were against sanctions. Sort of what we see with Iran.

[bush_cheney2004]

....I was under the impression from those days that sanctions hurt black South Africans more than it did the ruling classes thus some were against sanctions. Sort of what we see with Iran.

Yes...there is some evidence that sanctions actually helped SA's gross national income as domestic capital could snap up foreign owned businesses at bargain prices. Apartheid became impractical at the economic level because the labour of a growing black urban sector could not be effectively used in cities with such restrictions.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes...there is some evidence that sanctions actually helped SA's gross national income as domestic capital could snap up foreign owned businesses at bargain prices. Apartheid became impractical at the economic level because the labour of a growing black urban sector could not be effectively used in cities with such restrictions.

If I recall, Thatcher eventually did engage in some sanctions in order to shut-up the critics. However, to view her as pro-Apartheid would be incorrect. She hid anti-Apartheid activists in the British embassy to prevent their arrest, for example.

[jbg]

They were, especially Thatcher, against sanctions for sure. They spoke the platitudes of the day about apartheid but hell, they, and especially she, had a lot of investments to think about. Slave labor is damn healthy for the bottom line.

You don't seem to mind slave labor in the PRC.

[AngusThermopyle]

After reading through this thread and seeing the efforts of some to explain who exactly Mandela was and the rebutals by those who see only one side of him I feel compelled to ask if any of you have ever heard of Steven Biko? If you wish to compare someone to Ghandi or MLK then Biko is a much closer fit than Mandela. The key difference is that Biko was killed by the SA government. Had he lived it is entirely possible that he would have been the man who led SA to independence rather than Mandela. Biko never endorsed violence and always believed that all peoples of SA could and should live in a peacefull co-operative fashion with each other. Being Bantu he was fully aware of the oppressions visited upon black Africans yet also believed that violence was no answer and would only beget more violence.

It is somewhat sad that Biko appears to have been forgotten by history when he was in fact a man of vision and peace that in my opinion rivaled or even surpassed Mandela.

[bush_cheney2004]

... I feel compelled to ask if any of you have ever heard of Steven Biko?

Yes...I specifically mentioned Steve Biko above and why I thought he was very important. Biko was not an ANC insider and he sought to raise black consciousness in the urban centers. His death is synonymous with the civil rights struggle and fatalities in the USA.

Edited December 12, 2013 by bush_cheney2004