Michael Hardner Posted November 9, 2013 Report Posted November 9, 2013 No, really - the question is can we even talk about it ?Leaving aside the hillbilly wrestling show that is our political process... do we even have a framework to discuss budget in any meaningful way ?Toronto Life magazine, though anachronistic, provides some perspective on Ford Nation from the beacon of limousine liberalism:http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2013/02/22/the-flip-side-of-ford-philip-preville/ Only two years into Ford’s tenure, expenditures have essentially flatlined, from $9.405 billion last year to $9.432 billion this year. Ford’s detractors like to say he promised to stop the gravy, then found none. It turned out that the gravy didn’t flow in rushing brown-water rapids, but in trickles through every crack in the organization. Ford has spackled many of them shut. For example, he eliminated a “running lunch” program—code for a 30-minute paid lunch—in the vehicle maintenance department, which will save the city $391,000. He merged the shop that makes road signs with Transportation Services (why were they ever apart?), saving $110,000. At Fairview Library, an automated book sorter will save $160,000. It all adds up. The entire budget process has been opened up for the better. Torontonians learned back on November 29 that their annual tax bill would rise by 1.95 per cent (later revised to two per cent), but the real story that day wasn’t the size of the increase. It was the timing of the announcement. During Miller’s tenure, the annual tax increase, along with every other detail of the municipal budget, was kept under wraps until February. It’s a crucial difference in management style. Miller waited so he would know exactly how much money he had left over from the previous year. Ford doesn’t want to know, because he believes not knowing will force the city to spend more cautiously. So far, he’s been right. The city no longer needs to use its own prior-year surplus to balance next year’s budget. The 2012 surplus chimed in at $232 million, and instead of desperately shovelling it down the hole of the 2013 shortfall, council used it to increase funding for arts organizations and other programs. I do NOT want this thread to be about the subject at hand, but rather a meta-subject. The question is do we have a framework to discuss budget ? Is there a place to get objective numbers ? Is there a way to credit/discredit the mayor and council for making certain decisions happen ? Let's talk about talking first, then we can talk about policies and decisions. I'll bet MapleLeafWeb posters have something to add on this. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted November 9, 2013 Author Report Posted November 9, 2013 Here's the Torontoist talking about it: http://torontoist.com/2012/12/evaluating-rob-fords-budget-promises/ But it's hard to untangle what is what. The problem, I find, is that the details are complex and need a lot of context to explain. There is no incentive for anyone to demystify this complexity, since those who understand it are the "keepers of the mystery" as it were. Like labour and management negotiators, it is not in their interests - or even in their scope of understanding - for the "fight" to disappear. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
The_Squid Posted November 9, 2013 Report Posted November 9, 2013 Toronto politics are a complete and total mess. Nothing will be discussed until Ford goes away. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 9, 2013 Author Report Posted November 9, 2013 Toronto politics are a complete and total mess. Nothing will be discussed until Ford goes away. Ford will be gone soon, whether it's in a month, a year, or five years - it's a tick of the clock in the life of the city. How we talk about hard numbers is a problem that will outlive Ford. So, how do we do it ? Maybe we can look for some raw numbers... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
waldo Posted November 9, 2013 Report Posted November 9, 2013 How we talk about hard numbers is a problem that will outlive Ford. So, how do we do it ? Maybe we can look for some raw numbers... in the past couple of days, I've heard Ford supporters talk up "those numbers"... talk up the good job Ford has done, while emphasizing they could care less about his personal life, or how it affects the image of Toronto (or Canada for that matter). This doesn't speak to "outliving Ford"... this speaks to the potential of Ford Nation to leverage those, presumably favourable, numbers... to leverage them all the way to another Ford election win. Giddy-up! Quote
socialist Posted November 9, 2013 Report Posted November 9, 2013 in the past couple of days, I've heard Ford supporters talk up "those numbers"... talk up the good job Ford has done, while emphasizing they could care less about his personal life, or how it affects the image of Toronto (or Canada for that matter). This doesn't speak to "outliving Ford"... this speaks to the potential of Ford Nation to leverage those, presumably favourable, numbers... to leverage them all the way to another Ford election win. Giddy-up! Waldo, are you excited about the great prospect of having Justin Trudeau as our next long-serving PM? He is politically astute is making Harper look like a fool. Do you see a 2 decade run for JT? Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Michael Hardner Posted November 9, 2013 Author Report Posted November 9, 2013 So, this thread is about HOW we talk about budget, not about whether Ford will be re-elected, or whether he should be and certainly not about Justin Trudeau. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted November 9, 2013 Author Report Posted November 9, 2013 Starting point: http://www.toronto.ca/budget2012/ http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=61c5e03bb8d1e310VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextfmt=default http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=92c11764e70e1410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextfmt=default Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted November 9, 2013 Author Report Posted November 9, 2013 http://metronews.ca/voices/ford-for-toronto/519262/debunking-ford-nations-favourite-budget-chart/ This article offers some dry - very dry - commentary on how things are. Be careful what you wish for, is what I learned by this. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Topaz Posted November 10, 2013 Report Posted November 10, 2013 Michael, I don't live in TO but I did hear today that the new subway system is going to make taxes in TO go up, true or false? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 10, 2013 Author Report Posted November 10, 2013 Michael, I don't live in TO but I did hear today that the new subway system is going to make taxes in TO go up, true or false? True ! .5 %, I think. At least one of these articles refers to that. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Black Dog Posted November 14, 2013 Report Posted November 14, 2013 True ! .5 %, I think. At least one of these articles refers to that. .5% per year, 1.75% total IIRC. Still not enough. Michael, I don't really follow what you're looking for with this thread. No one is in a position to discuss nuts and bolts of the budget; me, I'm interested in the differences in philosophy between the "downtown elites" who view government spending as solution to everything and Ford Nation, for which opposition to spending is an end unto itself (I don't believe for a second that it was ever about waste). Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 14, 2013 Author Report Posted November 14, 2013 No one is in a position to discuss nuts and bolts of the budget; me, I'm interested in the differences in philosophy between the "downtown elites" who view government spending as solution to everything and Ford Nation, for which opposition to spending is an end unto itself (I don't believe for a second that it was ever about waste). Exactly the problem. Spending is going to happen. If we're not able to discuss details because of a lack of resources, then that's one thing but if we just would rather fight with people who are unlike us, then that's another thing altogether. I am sick of the bickering, it distracts from money being spent wisely and for the case to be made for good programs. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Black Dog Posted November 14, 2013 Report Posted November 14, 2013 Exactly the problem. Spending is going to happen. If we're not able to discuss details because of a lack of resources, then that's one thing but if we just would rather fight with people who are unlike us, then that's another thing altogether. I am sick of the bickering, it distracts from money being spent wisely and for the case to be made for good programs. That what I'm getting at. There's no voice in Toronto talking about the need to invest in a city that, in many ways, is literally falling apart. Right wingers hate spending period, left wingers get bogged down in mushy feelgoodism, but miss the big picture. Quote
Rue Posted November 14, 2013 Report Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) Ford said he has saved taxpayers more money than any other mayor. I think that is a statement he can not prove. May of us, me included have assumed he has saved taxpayers' money by simply not being David Miller, i.e., spending as much as him, but is that an accurate assumption? Does he save money simply by not spending money that should not have been spent in the first place? Has he really saved any money in terms of deleting redundant services? This gravy train he talks of, has anyone ever identified it other than it being an abstract name for what is perceived to be out of touch councillors who spend money on their personal expenses-and this coming from someone we now know used his office to get him booze, pick up his dri I believe that to show you saved money, you provide proof of how you changed a practice and made it more cost efficient? Where is the info for that so I can see? I just can not find it. Edited November 14, 2013 by Rue Quote
Black Dog Posted November 14, 2013 Report Posted November 14, 2013 Just realized my last post in this thread reads like an August1991 post and now I have to shower. Quote
Citizen Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Is there any way to find out what the City is being charged to fix a pothole, repave a sidewalk, etc? Or is the only amount available the total budget for road works? Quote
jbg Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Is there any way to find out what the City is being charged to fix a pothole, repave a sidewalk, etc? Or is the only amount available the total budget for road works?Municipal budgets are always mumbo-jumbo, at least in my city, New York. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Boges Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I heard RoFo say it cost $17 for one to be filled. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I heard RoFo say it cost $17 for one to be filled. Which means it could cost anywhere from $2 to a billion. Quote
Topaz Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I've gotta ask this question....when the Harris Era, changed two locations in the province, that being the County of Kent becoming Chatham-Kent and the City of Toronto and surrounding area becoming one.... looking at it today, was it a good idea or would better to go back before the change. I know I've heard many people from C-K don't like it since the majority of the population is centered in the city and the rural areas feel they are on the losing end . Thoughts? Quote
jbg Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I've gotta ask this question....when the Harris Era, changed two locations in the province, that being the County of Kent becoming Chatham-Kent and the City of Toronto and surrounding area becoming one.... looking at it today, was it a good idea or would better to go back before the change. I know I've heard many people from C-K don't like it since the majority of the population is centered in the city and the rural areas feel they are on the losing end . Thoughts?It may make sense to combine services. Combining municipalities rarely ends well. Even New York City, which was amalgamated into its current form in 1897, is a bit unwieldy and it is probably among the most successful combinations ever. That happened when the City of Brooklyn, then the third largest city in the U.S. in its own right, wanted the nascent New York City subway system extended to it. I think better efficiencies could have been managed by not merging the cities, but creating a separate transit district. I don't know if that would have worked for C-K or amalgamated Toronto. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Boges Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah but the Toronto mega city replaces the regional municipality or county level of government. That level doesn't exist in Hamilton-Wentworth, Toronto or Ottawa. Quote
BubberMiley Posted August 1, 2014 Report Posted August 1, 2014 How is Rob Ford to be expected to testify under oath without perjury? http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2014/08/01/police_to_subpoena_mayor_rob_ford_in_sandro_lisis_extortion_case.html Quote "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
Black Dog Posted August 1, 2014 Report Posted August 1, 2014 How is Rob Ford to be expected to testify under oath without perjury? http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2014/08/01/police_to_subpoena_mayor_rob_ford_in_sandro_lisis_extortion_case.html Oh that will be hilarious. Remember when he testified in his conflict of interest case? That was comedy gold. Quote
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