Will Stephen Harper resign over the Senate scandal?

[g_bambino]

Custom and precedent, sure. I guess I'm asking, in theory, is the GG allowed to appoint whomever he/she wants?

Well, it depends, I guess. If all is well, then, no, the governor general can't either appoint someone to the Senate without the prime minister's direction or appoint someone other than who the prime minister put forward. If he or she did so, the prime minister would have to take that as indication that the governor general no longer either required or trusted the prime minister's advice, requiring his resignation, thus leaving the country without a government. If the prime minister hadn't named any people to be appointed and Senate vacancies were multiplying, then... Maybe. The Constitution Act 1867 requires that the governor general appoint senators "from time to time". Obviously, "from time to time" is pretty vague; but, there also can't be a 3/4 empty Senate. So, it's hard to say when the governor general would be compelled to make appointments without ministerial advice, if the prime minister wan't offering such advice.

If the Prime Minister agrees with the Premiers or Lt. Govs (hereafter "the provinces") nominating Senators, then the PM would just advise the GG to appoint the nominees of the provinces. In this case it's pretty straightforward.

Where it gets complicated, I would think is if the Prime Minister disagrees with the provinces' nominees. Should the GG go against the Prime Minister, then it calls into question the Constitutional part of Constitutional monarchy. However, the provinces are just as democratic, except that they have no federal authority.

Certainly; provincial governments or legislatures could pick people the prime minister could then put forward to the governor general for appointment to the Senate. However, I don't think that could be legislated without, since it affects both the Royal Prerogative and the way in which senators are chosen, a constitutional amendment; it would only ever be an agreement, rather like the prime minister recommending people who'd been elected. But, given that it (or either) is just an agreement, the prime minister wouldn't be bound to follow it and could very well, as you say, reject a province's choice. I'd think that, in such a situation, the governor general would be bound to follow the federal prime minister's advice, since the Constitution Act 1867 does say specifically that it is the Queen's Privy Council for Canada--an entirely federal body that does not include provincial premiers or legislators, but of which the federal Cabinet is a committee--that is to "aid and advise" the governor general.

That said, it might be possible to make within the Privy Council another committee comprised of the provincial premiers and tasked specifically with advising the governor general on Senate appointments--this is essentially how the German Bundesrat is populated (though, the Bundesrat doesn't have exactly the same role as the Senate). Premiers would be responsible to their respective legislatures for the choices made. But, that too would require a constitutional amendment. And I shudder to think of what kind of people a PQ premier would put forward.

There is something tidy, at least, about filling an upper chamber of parliament by heredity....

[g_bambino]

But I'm not sure that the federal Crown could take advice from the government of a provincial Crown. It would almost be like the GG making appointments based on the advice of the Prime Minister of the UK.

Sort of, yes, and sort of no. The provincial and federal crowns are sovereign of one another, as are the Canadian and British crowns. But, the Canadian Crown is a compound one comprised of the one federal and ten provincial crowns in federation; it is simultaneously divided and unitary. The Queen's representatives in the provinces are, after all, appointed by the governor general on the advice of the federal prime minister.

[Topaz]

On "power and politics" one of the reporters said that the lawyer for Wright has said what Harper is saying that happen in his office isn't exactly true. Wright can't say anything until the RCMP is done and through with Wright. Can you imagine watching QP and hearing what the Tory side is and you differently? Next week a week down for the MP's and they can go home and the Tory MP's defend their leader.

[rickturpin]

He should resign, but then again, he never should have won in the first place.

[Smallc]

Sort of, yes, and sort of no. The provincial and federal crowns are sovereign of one another, as are the Canadian and British crowns. But, the Canadian Crown is a compound one comprised of the one federal and ten provincial crowns in federation; it is simultaneously divided and unitary. The Queen's representatives in the provinces are, after all, appointed by the governor general on the advice of the federal prime minister.

But I think you'd agree that it would be improper for the federal GG to take advice from the provincial PM.

[cybercoma]

Directly maybe. However, I gather from bambino that the premiers could form a subcommittee within the Privy Council to advise that their choices be put forward and appointed.

[Topaz]

IF the RCMP report comes back and Harper can be linked by knowing, then he will have to decide should, do I stay and risk reduction in party members in the next election OR do a resign and take my 6 million pension and become an advisor to my replacement?? Harper won't leave politics completely until that pipeline is built.

[Smallc]

Directly maybe. However, I gather from bambino that the premiers could form a subcommittee within the Privy Council to advise that their choices be put forward and appointed.

I've always said that a Senate with equal representation from each province could work well, if we don't have them directly elected. Having their either selected by a committee or by the provincial legislatures would be an excellent solution that would make them seem more legitimate while at the same time avoiding deadlock.

[jacee]

IF the RCMP report comes back and Harper can be linked by knowing, ...

Well it looks like Duffy has his evidence of complicity in the PMO to lie and cover up the payment, creating a 'script' of falsehoods for the public. No evidence yet of Harper 'knowing' about Wright's payment for Duffy to lie though.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pmo-offered-media-advice-to-duffy/article15367648/?service=mobile

An e-mail obtained by CTV News shows that on Feb. 20, two days before the repayment announcement, senior PMO officials approached Mr. Duffy to help him explain things.The electronic message, sent to Mr. Duffy from his lawyer Janice Payne, informs him shes been contacted by a PMO lawyer who works for Mr. Wright. The Prime Ministers Office names two PMO staffers who are standing by to craft messages for Mr. Duffy.

"Chris Woodcock of his office and Patrick Rogers are communications specialists very talented and happy to work with you to develop various strategies around communications, Ms. Payne wrote in the e-mail to Mr. Duffy.

[g_bambino]

He should resign, but then again, he never should have won in the first place.

Those two statements are incongruous.

[g_bambino]

But I think you'd agree that it would be improper for the federal GG to take advice from the provincial PM.

I'm pretty certain it would be unconstitutional, unless, as I said, the premier had been made a member of the Privy Council. But, even then, constitutional convention limits the governor general to taking advice only from the ministers of the Crown in Cabinet. If that were to change--i.e. a new committee of provincial prime ministers within the Privy Council was to be tasked specifically on advising the governor general on Senate appointments--a constitutional amendment would have to be passed and that might need the approval of all eleven governments and legislatures; at least the 66/50 requirement.

[cybercoma]

I'm pretty certain it would be unconstitutional, unless, as I said, the premier had been made a member of the Privy Council. But, even then, constitutional convention limits the governor general to taking advice only from the ministers of the Crown in Cabinet. If that were to change--i.e. a new committee of provincial prime ministers within the Privy Council was to be tasked specifically on advising the governor general on Senate appointments--a constitutional amendment would have to be passed and that might need the approval of all eleven governments and legislatures; at least the 66/50 requirement.

The amendment would be easy in that case. I don't think any province would say, "No. Please don't give us more powers."

[Bob Macadoo]

The amendment would be easy in that case. I don't think any province would say, "No. Please don't give us more powers."

The problem isn't disagreement with that its all the cooks wanting to add extra ingredients to the soup at the same time. If you open the constitution you open the constitution.

[cybercoma]

The problem isn't disagreement with that its all the cooks wanting to add extra ingredients to the soup at the same time. If you open the constitution you open the constitution.

Also true.

[g_bambino]

The amendment would be easy in that case. I don't think any province would say, "No. Please don't give us more powers."

What Bob Macadoo said plus the issue of whether or not any prime minister would want to relinquish his ability to determine who sits in the Senate.

[cybercoma]

What Bob Macadoo said plus the issue of whether or not any prime minister would want to relinquish his ability to determine who sits in the Senate.

Bob's right, but on your second point my response was predicated on a PM wanting to relinquish the ability. Edited November 12, 2013 by cybercoma

[g_bambino]

Bob's right, but on your second point my response was predicated on a PM wanting to relinquish the ability.

Mm. On second thought, perhaps Harper is a prime minister who would want to give up his role in populating the Senate...

[Topaz]

Last night on C-Pac, one Conservative said he doesn't know what to think about the fact if Harper knew or not and he's not the only Tory feeling that way and he hoped that the PM is telling the truth.

[scribblet]

He doesn't have to resign. The RCMP report doesn't contain much for the Prime Minister to be afraid of, never mind fearing for his job. Has Anyone on here actually read the report?.

[g_bambino]

The RCMP report doesn't contain much for the Prime Minister to be afraid of...

Perhaps not legally. But, there are obviously political ramifications.

[scribblet]

Perhaps not legally. But, there are obviously political ramifications.

Only if people continue to believe the media hysterics. At the end of all it’s nothing but 90k in inappropriate claims partly because the Liberal Senate majority blocked Senate Accountability legislation for years. (which has been paid back) This is nothing compared the millions in Liberal scandals still owed.

I was pleasantly surprised to see this letter in today's Globe and Mail.

"As a member of the Conservative Party, and an informed voter, I have read, from front to back, the Information to Obtain Orders filed by the RCMP in the Wright-Duffy affair. The Globe is to be commended for its balanced and accurate reporting of what is actually contained in the Order.

The information filed by the RCMP with the courts shows three things: 1) Nigel Wright was trying to do the right thing by retrieving $90,000 in taxpayers’ money to which Mr. Duffy was not entitled; 2) Mr. Duffy was no friend of the truth in what he told the Senate, the PM and the Canadian public; 3) Stephen Harper knew nothing about the affair and has ensured that the PMO has fully co-operated with the RCMP investigation. It is hard for the opposition to cry cover-up when the PMO gave the RCMP access to 260,000 e-mails.

The truly sad thing is that a misguided, possibly illegal attempt to have $90,000 dollars repaid to taxpayers is somehow a scandal, yet we are still short $40-million in taxpayers’ money because of the Liberals’ Adscam scandal.

=============, Oshawa, Ont."

[TimG]

Perhaps not legally. But, there are obviously political ramifications.

It all comes down to whether someone decides for other reasons that Harper should go. People who want Harper gone will insist that Harper is somehow guilty as a way to rationalize their desires. People who think that Harper is better than the alternatives will insist that Harper had nothing to do with it and will continue to support him.

A lot depends on Justin - if he presents himself as a viable alternative then he could win. But that would have been true even if this senate thing had never occurred (i.e. if it was not the senate then it would have been something else because the press gallery in Ottawa needs scandal to sell their product).

Personally, if this senate thing (where money was given under the table to repay the taxpayer) is the worst stain on the CPC government after 7 years in power then I think they are remarkably clean compared to prior governments.

Edited November 23, 2013 by TimG

[eyeball]

The truly sad thing is that a misguided, possibly illegal attempt to have $90,000 dollars repaid to taxpayers is somehow a scandal, yet we are still short $40-million in taxpayers’ money because of the Liberals’ Adscam scandal.

Who said it was about the money?

What's really sad it how many Canadians never seem to get that.

[jacee]

The truly sad thing is that a misguided, possibly illegal attempt to have $90,000 dollars repaid to taxpayers is somehow a scandal, yet we are still short $40-million in taxpayers money because of the Liberals Adscam scandal.[/size][/font][/color]

=============, Oshawa, Ont."

And the $3b Harper spent but can't account for =========??????

Trouble ahead for Harper ...

john-ivison: senate-scandal-may-have-made-stephen-harper-an-electoral-liability-in-west

Yet everyone I spoke to said that the entire Conservative party is unsettled. There is a palpable sense of disillusionment a feeling that the leader and his staff have forgotten the party was elected on a ticket of accountability and transparency.

The Prime Minister told caucus that Nigel acted alone. But its clear now that a number of people in the room, including some senators and his chief of staff, knew all about it, said one MP.

One MP said that some Conservative members are already talking about a leadership contest, if Mr. Wright is charged with bribery, fraud and breach of trust.

If charges are laid, there is no way the PM can continue. MPs are talking about it openly this week. No one expects Jim Flaherty to run again, so he could be installed as interim leader and wed still have time to hold a leadership contest before the next election, he said.

Edited November 23, 2013 by jacee

[g_bambino]

t’s nothing but 90k in inappropriate claims...

There's more to it than that, as I'm sure you're aware.