Ontario hydro rates

[Topaz]

Okay Ontario, get ready another increase in our bills and this isn't the end of them rising yet. I've been told altogether rates will raise 80% before it ends. So... I guess that means many Ontarians will be seating in the dark or switching over to natural gas where possible. The cause is apparently, the wind turbines and the move of the gas plants, which I think those communities that were against them should pay more of the cost of the move. There also the disappearance of the coal-firing plant, which were cheaper to run. If those communities could get gas plant moved, just think what ALL of Ontario voters could do about the rates of hydro in the next election. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/ontario-electricity-rates-rising-due-liberal-mistakes-opposition-235950450.html%C2'>

[waldo]

The cause is apparently, the wind turbines and the move of the gas plants, which I think those communities that were against them should pay more of the cost of the move.

citation request

[scribblet]

Some people have seen their bills increase as much as 100%, we are being scammed. The Green Energy Act is the cause of this

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/05/10/power_plant_cancellations_green_energy_act_looms_behind_gas_plant_mess.html#

Then there's the fact that Ontario consumers have been charged $1.2 billion over the last three years to subsidize power for customers outside the province.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2012/07/30/ontario_consumers_pay_millions_to_subsidize_electricity_exports.html#

[waldo]

in 2005 the Ontario Government instituted the Global Adjustment (GA) charge as a means to collect from Ontario customers any shortfalls in the costs of generation contracts or regulated rates. Per the 2011-2012 Ontario Energy Board Report, since 2006 a breakdown of the sources behind GA charges has been:

- 45 percent is attributable to the Bruce Power and OPG nuclear units

- 28 percent is attributable to OEFC‟s NUG contracts and contingency financial support for OPG‟s coal-fired generation

- 13 percent is attributable to CES and early-mover gas-fired generation contracts

- 8 percent is attributable to other sources such as demand response and payments for the output of OPG‟s prescribed hydroelectric assets

- 6 percent is attributable to renewable assets, primarily wind and solar resources

[waldo]

Power Advisory LLC deconstructed a representative Ontario customer electric bill:

... electricity supply costs account for about half of the total average monthly bill of $154.42 for 2012. Delivery costs made up 30% of the total bill, taxes 12%, and the rest was split up between Regulatory Charges and the Debt Retirement Charge. Of the supply costs, about half (49%) is paid to nuclear generators, 18% is for generation from hydroelectric sources, 15% is for gas-fired generation, and 6% is for coal. Wind is 5% of the total supply cost and solar, biomass and other sources make up the remaining 7%

[CPCFTW]

Power Advisory LLC deconstructed a representative Ontario customer electric bill:

What's your point? You're looking at one side of the equation: cost. How much power was generated by that 49% nuclear vs 7% vs 5% etc.

[waldo]

What's your point? You're looking at one side of the equation: cost. How much power was generated by that 49% nuclear vs 7% vs 5% etc.

there are many sides of "the equation"... but wait, are you suggesting those supply cost percentages correlate directly back to generation levels? Is that your opening premise? In any case, perhaps you'd be keen to drill down on the many sides that reflect upon generation; you know, factoring in historical capital, disproportionate subsidies, existing infrastructure, etc.. Once you do that, perhaps you can provide a fair correlation, particularly one that can be applied to an electric bill's bottom-line.

[Shady]

It's another example of radical environmental polices that harm the economy. They care more about C02 than the wellbeing of the average Canadian.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Shady

[waldo]

It's another example of radical environmental polices that harm the economy.

citation request

[bush_cheney2004]

It's another example of radical environmental polices that harm the economy. They care more about C02 than the wellbeing of the average Canadian.

Very true...in Ontariario....residents are paying more in taxes and "green fees" than the actual cost of producing kilowatts. Add on a bungled gas plant with relocation costs along with outraged residents next to Big Wind farm eye/ear sores, and it's enough to wonder what the enviroMentalists are thinking.

[waldo]

Okay Ontario, get ready another increase in our bills and this isn't the end of them rising yet. I've been told altogether rates will raise 80% before it ends. So... I guess that means many Ontarians will be seating in the dark or switching over to natural gas where possible. The cause is apparently, the wind turbines and the move of the gas plants, which I think those communities that were against them should pay more of the cost of the move. There also the disappearance of the coal-firing plant, which were cheaper to run. If those communities could get gas plant moved, just think what ALL of Ontario voters could do about the rates of hydro in the next election.

I challenged you to cite a costs related aspect of your statement... let's ramp that up and have you cite something that speaks to the broader statements within your complete opening post. The threads you start are usually fairly good in establishing a reference point/guide for discussion; however, in this case, if I might... this is an example of a thread that the board moderator has recently spoken to; i.e., one that lacks substantive input/background to bring forward meaningful discussion. You speak to, "I've been told"... "I guess"... "is apparently"... "I think". You offer nothing to support/substantiate your OP. Carry on.

[Topaz]

I challenged you to cite a costs related aspect of your statement... let's ramp that up and have you cite something that speaks to the broader statements within your complete opening post. The threads you start are usually fairly good in establishing a reference point/guide for discussion; however, in this case, if I might... this is an example of a thread that the board moderator has recently spoken to; i.e., one that lacks substantive input/background to bring forward meaningful discussion. You speak to, "I've been told"... "I guess"... "is apparently"... "I think". You offer nothing to support/substantiate your OP. Carry on.

Are you asking proof of the increase of 80%? Well I can't give you proof, it was told to me by someone connected to the wind industry last year. Not all information is online in print. I would never print something on here that wasn't true and since hydro rates are going up and up, the person knew what he was saying.

[GostHacked]

People did not think that would happen?

We use more energy efficient stuff to save energy and money. Energy companies no longer rake in the cash due to things being more efficient, so the rates go up. People did not see this coming? Really? It's just another scam on the general population.

[TimG]

Energy companies no longer rake in the cash due to things being more efficient, so the rates go up.

Nonsense. Manufacturing companies are relocating to the US because of the cheap electricity created by the natural gas boom. If prices are going up in Ontario it is entirely because of government incompetence (e.g. cancelling two natural gas plants that would have allowed Ontarians to enjoy the benefits the natural gas boom). Edited October 20, 2013 by TimG

[GostHacked]

Nonsense. Manufacturing companies are relocating to the US because of the cheap electricity created by the natural gas boom. If prices are going up in Ontario it is entirely because of government incompetence (e.g. cancelling two natural gas plants that would have allowed Ontarians to enjoy the benefits the natural gas boom).

Gasoline is the same scenario. Many more fuel efficient cars on the road, and price of gas goes up and up and up.

[gunrutz]

From what i have heard ore being extracted from mines in northern Ontario is being shipped to Quebec for smelting because electrircity prices are significantly lower there. There is no doubt in my mind that at least some of the power rates and structure in thiis province are as a result of a green policy agenda, but even if that isnt true the rates are too high and it is hurting industry and job opportunites for people who are more concerned about paying their bills than pretending to be a leader in greening the planet.

[TimG]

Gasoline is the same scenario. Many more fuel efficient cars on the road, and price of gas goes up and up and up.

Actually no. The price of gas is going up because world demand for oil in increasing and the cost of extracting oil going up. More fuel efficient cars have made this problem less that it would have been. Canadian governments have largely avoided destructive interference in the oil market so prices are as cheap we can possibly expect given market conditions. Edited October 20, 2013 by TimG

[waldo]

Are you asking proof of the increase of 80%? Well I can't give you proof, it was told to me by someone connected to the wind industry last year. Not all information is online in print. I would never print something on here that wasn't true and since hydro rates are going up and up, the person knew what he was saying.

I'm asking you to substantiate... to go beyond your "someone told me"... and your speculative powers. If you can't, if it's not available (as you say, not online), then you're providing nothing more than your anecdotal comment... comment that may or may not have substance, comment that provides no substantiated attribution.

[waldo]

People did not think that would happen?

We use more energy efficient stuff to save energy and money. Energy companies no longer rake in the cash due to things being more efficient, so the rates go up. People did not see this coming? Really? It's just another scam on the general population.

nice to read you leap, full bore conspiracy, into a nothing OP... an OP that has no foundation to it... other than "someone told me"!

[waldo]

(e.g. cancelling two natural gas plants that would have allowed Ontarians to enjoy the benefits the natural gas boom).

outright cancelled? No. Try again, hey!

[bush_cheney2004]

Member Topaz is right....Ontario residents are paying crazy high hydro rates, taxes, and fees and there is no end in sight.

Ontario power fee sets new record

The global adjustment -- a fee added to the market price of electricity in Ontario -- has reached a record high

http://www.thestar.com/business/economy/2013/09/03/ontario_power_fee_sets_new_record.html

Edited October 20, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[DFCaper]

So Waldo, what moves has Ontario made that our electricity policy is now destroying our economy?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/ontario-drives-manufacturers-away-with-overpriced-electricity/article14854752/

Ontario liberals destruction of Ontario will take decades to recover from. Just wondering when we can start the recovery.

[GostHacked]

nice to read you leap, full bore conspiracy, into a nothing OP... an OP that has no foundation to it... other than "someone told me"!

In many states and provinces these smartmeters were put in to save you money. Governments of several provinces initiated green programs. Energy efficient light bulbs, smartmeters to give you best information to do things at low peaks to save money. Energy star rated appliances. ALL this to reduce the cost of the end consumer. Now the prices go up. Even the Canadian government lifted the end date for incandescent light bulbs. Main concern is the mercury and other chemicals in these bulbs that are considered hazardous waste, and are more than double the price of incandescent ones.

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Hydro+smart+meters+jolt+with+class+action+lawsuit/8714398/story.html

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/05/feds-easing-rules-on-incandescent-light-bulb-ban

OTTAWA -- The feds are softening the rules for the coming ban on traditional light bulbs, but you'll still be hit in the pocketbook.

In January, officials will flip the switch on a year-long phase-out of the inefficient but cheap incandescent bulbs that have lit Canadian homes for generations.

New energy efficiency regulations would have also banned halogen incandescent bulbs, but Natural Resources officials now say they'll relax the standard so that those bulbs will survive the phase out.

That will leave consumers with an alternative to energy-saving compact fluorescent light (CFL) bulbs and LEDs.

While halogen incandescents suck up more power than CFLs and LEDs, they're still more efficient that traditional blubs.

And unlike CFLs, halogen incandescents don't contain mercury - a toxic substance can end up on carpets or hands and in the air if a bulb breaks.

Government officials admit Canadians worry about CFLs.

"Concerns have been raised by some Canadians and the media regarding CFLs, namely their mercury content, the method for their proper disposal, their perceived associated health effects and their performance," said officials in their regulatory analysis.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/why-ontarians-arent-saving-money-with-smart-meters/article618146/

Time of use pricing means people use less power during peak times. That means we don’t have to build new capacity to meet that peak demand -- and that will save money in the long term.

Kind of cherry picked this line. The savings in money is no new energy plants are being built to keep up with increasing demand. So they want to strain and make this one efficient. But that seems to come at the cost of convenience. So they save money by no future investment in energy creation/capacity.

Also note that smart meters require more power to run simply because of the computer and wifi component in the device.

Edited for Waldo, and only waldo. Now deal with it.

Edited October 21, 2013 by GostHacked

[waldo]

^GostHacked... you have almost 15,000 posts and you haven't yet figured out how to quote properly. Fix your post and I'll give it the flaming conspiratorial significance, that it deserves!

[waldo]

So Waldo, what moves has Ontario made that our electricity policy is now destroying our economy?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/ontario-drives-manufacturers-away-with-overpriced-electricity/article14854752/

Ontario liberals destruction of Ontario will take decades to recover from. Just wondering when we can start the recovery.

so DFCaper, notwithstanding your incoherent first sentence, your linked article offers a summary assessment that, The culprit for Ontario’s pricey electricity is the so-called “global adjustment,” ... my first post in this thread addressed the Global Adjustment - here: If you have more current data/info please step-up and provide it..... and while you're doing that, why not take the effort/time to quantify that GA in terms of it's ¢/kWh impact on regulated consumer, small business and industrial scale electricity rates.

your linked article emphasizes Montreal... a comparison to Montreal. Comparing any city (Canada or the U.S.) to Montreal is a non-starter... no city comes anywhere near the low rates available to Montreal consumers/business. Clearly, Hydro-Quebec's pricing is an anomaly that speaks to broader market considerations and policies within Quebec. I'd certainly like to see what Ontario companies would shift their operations to Quebec based on electricity prices... why... is there a coincident angle one could squeeze out on the issue of Quebec sovereignty... weakening.

and again, while emphasizing Quebec/Montreal, your linked article finishes up with a stooopid statement, In a rational system – a country with an integrated national electricity market – one province wouldn’t be poaching customers from another.... a "shared grid" has no bearing on the internal practices/policies of respective provinces.

as I review a historical snapshot and current comparisons across provinces, Alberta & Ontario pricing looks to be, generally, on par... generally (recognizing month-to-month variances), Edmonton, Calgary and Toronto ¢/kWh pricing is close, whether residential, small or large business usage. Deregulation always gets trotted out; however, as I interpret, Alberta is a true deregulated market... less so Ontario (given the subsequent changes applied to the original Harris Progressive Conservative deregulation undertaking). It appears increased pricing in Ontario has only peaked in the last couple of years. In any case, exported power does bring money back into the provincial treasury, at large. A fair assessment on what could/should be done with export monies would be one that looks at just how the province applies the revenue realized from export markets. Of course, lazy journalists looking for easy sound-bites will always gather the low-hanging fruit from complaining companies... doing a comprehensive assessment would take work/initiative.