Police and Natives protest Fracking, New Brunswick

[cybercoma]

What I'm fed up with is paying something on the order of $10,000 per native in federal money so they can sit around doing nothing on their living museums and complain about life.

any idea how much governments spend per citizen when you combine municipal, provincial, and federal (natives are only under federal)? It's about $14,000 per person. So natives are funded 30% less and that's still too much, while you argue in another thread that govt expenditures are necessary in a civilized society. Interesting.

[Argus]

You'd best get used to it because those who won't work will soon be joined by those who can't because there simply won't be anywhere near as much work to do.

Technology advances in the past have always created as many jobs as they eliminated.

Your resentment is going to be the biggest challenge our economy faces in the future. If everyone needs to be doing something to justify their existence then we're going to have to reinvent our economy.

Everyone DOES need to be doing something to justify their existence, barring extreme health issues. Why should a huge group of people just spend their lives, waste their lives, sitting around in crappy houses in the wilderness getting drunk and depressed and miserable? What kind of life is that? Just so you can bang on a drum now and then and be proud of being a 'native'?

And you don't see me screaming for tax cuts and cuts to government services. But that doesn't mean I don't see the gross inefficiency of keeping a whole mass of people like living museum pieces out in the woods their whole lives.

You'll need to take more time off for example so your opportunity to work can be shared.

I took a year off, as a matter of fact, and probably won't go back since it was my fourth biggest source of income. I made more off investments (2nd source of income) than working for the government.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

any idea how much governments spend per citizen when you combine municipal, provincial, and federal (natives are only under federal)? It's about $14,000 per person. So natives are funded 30% less and that's still too much, while you argue in another thread that govt expenditures are necessary in a civilized society. Interesting.

That's a very strange form of accounting you've got there. It exempts natives from from almost all the costs you're associating with 'normal' citizens, like the cost of the armed forces, of maintaining highways and roads, of the weather service and everything else.

And btw, where does your figure come from? According to this http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/12/13/mark-milke-more-generous-than-you-might-think/ It's $7316.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

No it isn't. Read again.

So do lots of people.

Many of them are Aboriginal.

Not those on reserves.

[Argus]

Don't you work for the government?

Technically. My money doesn't really come from the government, though.

[Bonam]

Technically. My money doesn't really come from the government, though.

Who does it come from then? If you work for the government it comes from people in the private sector who pay taxes.

[cybercoma]

.

Edited December 15, 2013 by cybercoma

[Shady]

Your resentment is going to be the biggest challenge our economy faces in the future. If everyone needs to be doing something to justify their existence then we're going to have to reinvent our economy.

Not to justify their existence, but to justify being given tens of thousands of dollars each year in perpetuity, with no strings attached and no metrics to measure achieved goals.

[jacee]

Who does it come from then? If you work for the government it comes from people in the private sector who pay taxes.

Public sector employees pay taxes.

They pay part of their own salaries.

[jacee]

Not to justify their existence, but to justify being given tens of thousands of dollars each year in perpetuity, with no strings attached and no metrics to measure achieved goals.

Don't be ridiculous.

Check any First Nations' website for their financial reports. You will see expenditures for the same services as for any community.

Education, health, governance, infrastructure, social services, housing, public works, etc.

This isn't rocket science.

[Rocky Road]

Justice for all.

[Argus]

Who does it come from then? If you work for the government it comes from people in the private sector who pay taxes.

Everyone's money ultimately comes from the private sector, but I haven't collected a pay cheque from the government in several months and won't again (if ever) for a while. I doubt I'll go back. Working for the government is soul-deadening.

[Argus]

Don't be ridiculous.

Check any First Nations' website for their financial reports. You will see expenditures for the same services as for any community.

Education, health, governance, infrastructure, social services, housing, public works, etc.

This isn't rocket science.

New figures made public by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation show that 82 band chiefs and councillors from across the country earn more than the prime minister, who makes $317,574 annually, and 704 take in more than $100,000 a year, with one earning close to $1 million.

Interesting comparison here, between the salaries paid to Attawapiskat's chief and councilors, and what other reserves and northern towns pay. Maybe helps explain why that reserve is perpetually crying poor despite spending much more than other reserves or towns which are larger.

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/display.aspx?id=2147484000

[jacee]

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/display.aspx?id=2147484000

2011 slam spam ?

The thread is about fracking.

And the larger issues of land and resource rights.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/politics/story/1.2451972

Example:

The prime ministers special envoy on West Coast energy issues says the federal government must take decisive action to engage aboriginal groups opposed to new oil and gas pipelines.

Its never too late to engage and do so in a process of good faith negotiations, Doug Eyford told reporters.

...

I think it's a risk not just to the companies but to Canadians as a whole. These projects obviously will have a significant impact on the Canadian economy and if they don't go ahead, then I think it's something that will impact all Canadians," he said.

"Aboriginal communities remain cautious and require Canada to continue to demonstrate its commitment to improving the relationship."

Edited December 16, 2013 by jacee

[Rocky Road]

And the thunder rolls.

[PIK]

Can someone show me where fracking has done damage to drinking water, a report, not one guy whinning about it.

[jacee]

Sure. No problem. Your google fingers broke?

scientificamerican: groundwater-contamination-may-end-the-gas-fracking-boom

In Pennsylvania, the closer you live to a well used to hydraulically fracture underground shale for natural gas, the more likely it is that your drinking water is contaminated with methane.

And in NB, of course, the overriding issue is "Does the Crown have the right to approve fracking?"

http://m.thestar.com/#!/opinion/redirect/47872011294c11bbc01e293d60528dd0

One day, Canadians woke up to a legal reality in which millions of acres of land were recognized as never having been acquired by the Crown, and that elephant has been occupying our national room ever since.Unfortunately, this glaring issue did not seem to percolate into the wider Canadian consciousness, and many people remain unaware of it.

In 1999, the Supreme Court passed down another judgement confirming that the Peace and Friendship Treaties of 1760-1761 did not cede land or resources. This cannot be emphasized strongly enough: the Mikmaq never gave up legal rights to their land or resources. Canada does not own the land that the people of Elsipogtog are defending.

Edited December 31, 2013 by jacee

[-1=e^ipi]

In Pennsylvania, the closer you live to a well used to hydraulically fracture underground shale for natural gas, the more likely it is that your drinking water is contaminated with methane.

Methane isn't poisonous...

In 1999, the Supreme Court passed down another judgement confirming that the Peace and Friendship Treaties of 1760-1761 did not cede land or resources. This cannot be emphasized strongly enough: the Mikmaq never gave up legal rights to their land or resources. Canada does not own the land that the people of Elsipogtog are defending.

The land was taken by the British & French via force. Also, the concept that a group of people can or cannot give up their LEGAL rights doesn't make sense in a time period and location where a legal system did not exist. Furthermore, how did the Mikmaq acquire legal right to this land in the first place?

[PIK]

Here is ezras take on it. Now I know the lefdt hates him ,because he does that nasty thing of actually checking the facts on this stuff.

http://ezralevant.com/2013/12/newfoundlanders-arent-getting.html

[jacee]

Methane isn't poisonous...

Do you drink it regularly?

The land was taken by the British & French via force. Also, the concept that a group of people can or cannot give up their LEGAL rights doesn't make sense in a time period and location where a legal system did not exist. Furthermore, how did the Mikmaq acquire legal right to this land in the first place?

You can whine ... but that's the law in Canada.

.

[bush_cheney2004]

The laws in Canada took most of the land.

[jacee]

Here is ezras take on it. Now I know the lefdt hates him ,because he does that nasty thing of actually checking the facts on this stuff.

http://ezralevant.com/2013/12/newfoundlanders-arent-getting.html

Maybe there are better science sources than Ezra:

Link

Edited December 31, 2013 by jacee

[PIK]

Maybe there are better science sources than Ezra:

Link

Taken from your site, it shows both sides need to be more honest.

''The study does not prove that fracking has contaminated specific drinking-water wells, however. “I have no agenda to stop fracking,” Jackson says. He notes that drilling companies often construct wells properly. But by denying even the possibility that some wells may leak, the drilling companies have undermined their own credibility.''

[jacee]

The laws in Canada took most of the land.

And the laws of Canada gave it back.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23084-police-and-natives-protest-fracking-new-brunswick/?p=938254

Try to keep up.

Edited December 31, 2013 by jacee

[jacee]

Taken from your site, it shows both sides need to be more honest.

''The study does not prove that fracking has contaminated specific drinking-water wells, however. I have no agenda to stop fracking, Jackson says. He notes that drilling companies often construct wells properly. But by denying even the possibility that some wells may leak, the drilling companies have undermined their own credibility.''

It shows them being scientists, honest about the limits of their findings. They haven't identified actual leaks, but they have confirmed that the closer you live to a fracking site, the more likely you are to have methane in your drinking water.

Do you drink methane contaminated water? Would you give it to your kids?

Edited December 31, 2013 by jacee