Police and Natives protest Fracking, New Brunswick

[Argus]

Fracking is controversial everywhere. I have grave suspicions about the effect on groundwater myself.

Without much national notice the natives of a reserve in New Brunswick have been blockading a public road near their reserve in protest against a company which wants to explore the possibility of fracking nearby. Note that none of the land in question is theirs, however, they do have legitimate interest in what happens to their ground water.

Aside from blocking the road, and blocading the mining company and it's trucks, this isn't terribly unique, as such protests and activism happens wherever fracking is being considered. The level of intimidation and threats to the company employees in this case seems to be a lot higher, though, including brandishing firearms. And of course, since this protest involves natives we get the now routine native tactic of blocking roads, public or otherwise.

We saw this most particularly in Caledonia, where the McGuinty government displayed a level of rank cowardice in dealing with a variety of illegal behaviour by natives which is largely unparalelled in modern Canadian history.

In New Brunswick, this situation has been going on since early September, and when the RCMP finally responded to court injunctions and moved in there was a lot of violence, largely coming from the natives.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/18/shale-gas-protest-that-turned-violent-in-new-brunswick-spurs-sympathy-protests-across-country/

While I have some sympathy with the concerns involving fracking I have none with violence of this nature, burning police vehicles, throwing molotiv cocktails, assaulting police, nor, for that matter, blocking public roads. IMHO anyone who blocks a road should be immediately arrested, whether there's one of them or a thousand, whether they're natives or blondes. And any sort of violence in resisting that arrest and removal should be met and overcome, regardless of cost. Such is a requirement for living in a civilized society. You cannot have some people brandishing weapons and intimidating people with threats or violence without police intervention (although of course, that is precisely what happened in Caledonia due to Liberal cowardice).

The indignation and outrage of natives that their roadblock was removed simply goes to show what years of political gutlessness and coddling have led to, a situation where natives believe that blocking roads is their absolute right whenever they have a concern, be it about native rights, land rights, or environemntal/mining concerns. They do not, and that should be made clear to them.

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The title of this thread has been edited to be more descriptive of the topic. The Natives are Restless again was the old title.

Ch. A.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Charles Anthony
title edited

[cybercoma]

I don't know if it's true or not, but there's images floating around of the person that was throwing the molotovs. They have a shot of him in the same clothes meeting with RCMP officers. So the rumour now is that the RCMP have used an agent provocateur to create the violence narrative, allowing them to respond more harshly than they would have otherwise been given sympathy for. The protest group is claiming they don't know who the person is and that yesterday was the first time they've seen him. I know people in that protest and while I don't agree with them disobeying the court injunction, sometimes you have to disobey laws to get your point across. I certain don't condone destroying cop cars and using molotov cocktails though. However, if the rumours are to be believed, the RCMP will just get their money back through an their insurance claims and destroying their own cars with an agent provocateur allows them to discredit the protest and react more violently to protesters.

[bud]

can you post these pics?

[bud]

oh and the canadian police would never go that low and use agent provocateur to create the violence narrative. it would never happen. that's just more leftist, hippie talk.

it never happened in montreal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZm-AL9uIPc

and it never happened in toronto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbLU9tdDwxo

[Wilber]

I don't know if it's true or not, but there's images floating around of the person that was throwing the molotovs. They have a shot of him in the same clothes meeting with RCMP officers. So the rumour now is that the RCMP have used an agent provocateur to create the violence narrative, allowing them to respond more harshly than they would have otherwise been given sympathy for. The protest group is claiming they don't know who the person is and that yesterday was the first time they've seen him. I know people in that protest and while I don't agree with them disobeying the court injunction, sometimes you have to disobey laws to get your point across. I certain don't condone destroying cop cars and using molotov cocktails though. However, if the rumours are to be believed, the RCMP will just get their money back through an their insurance claims and destroying their own cars with an agent provocateur allows them to discredit the protest and react more violently to protesters.

Don't know about the RCMP but many departments don't insure their vehicles for loss. Don't even know if they can get insurance for them.

[guyser]

Don't know about the RCMP but many departments don't insure their vehicles for loss. Don't even know if they can get insurance for them.

Typically they only have Liability insurance.

If the cops had to operate under the normal rules of insurance, pretty much every claim they have would be an at fault claim .

Thus, our taxes pay for the abuse that gets heaped on Police cars.

[Argus]

While the police always infilitrate such groups if they can, the idea that some police agent would deliberately instigate them into throwing molotov cocktails at police and their cars is kind of silly.

The molotov cocktail is a deadly weapon as far as police are concerned, at least in North America. I think one of the reasons it never became the sort of protestors's tool it is in parts of Europe and Asia is that the police will generally shoot anyone they see trying to thow one at them. Nor would they get much if any criticism from the mainstream if they did so.

According to the NB premier there were a lot of guns among the protestors.

RCMP officers in New Brunswick seized weapons and explosives from what Premier David Alward‎ described as an “armed encampment” of First Nations protesters near the site of a violent confrontation on Thursday.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/nb-premier-david-alward-defends-rcmp-over-clash-with-native-protesters/article14931601/

[Hudson Jones]

While the police always infilitrate such groups if they can, the idea that some police agent would deliberately instigate them into throwing molotov cocktails at police and their cars is kind of silly.

Pay attention to this link that was already shared so you don't end up sounding silly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZm-AL9uIPc

[Argus]

Pay attention to this link that was already shared so you don't end up sounding silly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZm-AL9uIPc

I never sound silly. I leave that to those who argue with me.

I already said that I didn't doubt police would infiltate something like this, and you play the role when you do, but that's quite a bit different from throwing molotov cocktails at police and burning up police cars.

[Bryan]

Pay attention to this link that was already shared so you don't end up sounding silly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZm-AL9uIPc

Considering that there was no evidence of anything on that video, you're the one looking pretty silly. All you had was an unproven accusation against a couple of people who didn't actually do anything. No violence, no property damage, just standing there while holding a rock. That's a HUGE difference from molotov cocktails and burning police cars.

[Hudson Jones]

I never sound silly. I leave that to those who argue with me.

I already said that I didn't doubt police would infiltate something like this, and you play the role when you do, but that's quite a bit different from throwing molotov cocktails at police and burning up police cars.

This was also shared, showing information about cars being burnt by what looks to be police infiltrators:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TbLU9tdDwxo

[scribblet]

Peaceful protesters don't carry molotov cocktales around with them.

[jacee]

The indignation and outrage of natives that their roadblock was removed simply goes to show what years of political gutlessness and coddling have led to, a situation where natives believe that blocking roads is their absolute right whenever they have a concern, be it about native rights, land rights, or environemntal/mining concerns. They do not, and that should be made clear to them.

If the governments fail to consult with them and accommodate their concerns and interests in uses of their traditional territories, then the Mi'kmaq's options for preventing irreversible damage are limited.

Preventing access seems pretty reasonable to me.

These local injunctions by lower court judges who don't comprehend Sec 35 of the constitution are just inciting confrontation.

[jacee]

Peaceful protesters don't carry molotov cocktales around with them.

Apparently police provocateurs might.

[waldo]

Fracking is controversial everywhere. I have grave suspicions about the effect on groundwater myself.

and if 'your' groundwater were to be affected/compromised... what would you do, after-the-fact? Once the deed was done... what would you do with your expressed "grave suspicions"?

[jacee]

Some background info that clarifies the land issue, negotiations process, and an opinion that the police acted too quickly and with too much force.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/touch/story.html?id=9054564

The Mikmaq people of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, including the Elsipogtog First Nation, have never signed a treaty relinquishing authority to the land on which the Route 134 blockade stands today, or that on which SWN Resources is conducting exploratory testing. They signed a Peace and Friendship Treaty in 1761, which was re-affirmed in 1982 with Canadas Constitution Act and then again in a 1999 Supreme Court of Canada decision, but that agreement included no mention of the surrender of any lands.

Although the federal and New Brunswick governments are currently engaged in exploratory discussions to address issues of land ownership, rights, and sovereignty, there has been no agreement yet.

Given this reality, SWN Resources exploration permits arent legitimate. Nor was the court injunction criminalizing the blockade, and the police action was ridiculously illegitimate, not to mention unjust, unreasonable in its heavy-handedness, and terribly bad public relations for the RCMP.

In the above-mentioned Supreme Court case, the federal government was encouraged to negotiate with all First Nations in Canada in order to resolve the many outstanding issues and fulfil its treaty obligations. The negotiation process takes a lot of time, but thats the point. Its designed to be a meaningful engagement to avoid violent confrontation and find a mutually acceptable solution to these complex issues. If we hope to avoid more destructive events like that which took place on Thursday in New Brunswick, negotiation is the only way forward.

Negotiations are taking place with the provincial government, too. Premier David Alward and Chief Sock met as recently as last week to find a way to end the blockade, and they agreed to form a working group with representatives from the governments of the province and the Elsipogtog First Nation as well as the energy industry. Why the RCMP felt that it was appropriate to intervene in what was at the time a peaceful protest in the midst of active negotiations is unclear, but thankfully all sides have agreed to resume negotiation now that the police have stepped back.

Before gas exploration continues, those negotiations must reach a settlement.

Negotiations haven't yet reached an agreement to allow exploration, so the blockade is entirely reasonable, imo.

The police action seemed directed at confiscating weapons, not breaking up the blockade, so far.

[cybercoma]

Peaceful protesters don't carry molotov cocktales around with them.

There was 1 person that the protesters didn't recognize who had the molotovs. That's coming from over a dozen people I know that are involved in that protest.

[cybercoma]

This is not a treaty issue and the protesters are pretty miffed that the news is turning it into that.

[GostHacked]

While the police always infilitrate such groups if they can, the idea that some police agent would deliberately instigate them into throwing molotov cocktails at police and their cars is kind of silly.

Montebello, Quebec. Three police officers were outed, they were not there to monitor, they were there to instigate.

G20 Toronto, Ont, Spadina Ave and the corralling of many protestors a day after the cops stood back and watched their cars burn for all the world to see. Anyone who has seen those vids can clearly see the corralling the protestors telling them they must leave the area, but gave them no way out. Those dudes who trashed the shops and cars? Agent provocateurs most likely. They were told to be black bloc. Maybe this no face mask at a protest is good, that way we can see the cops faces that are among the crowd.

OH and that biker gang attempting to beat up the SUV driver in front of his wife and kid? Yeah it's been reported that TWO cops were among the bikers and they did nothing to stop it.

It may not happen in every case, but the police have been infiltrating these groups for years AND they have been instigating violence.

[GostHacked]

We have seen it in the UK and other areas where fracking has been 100% linked small quake activity. Some reaching in the high 3s. Get many of these things over a large area and you can have a very big potential problem with sudden ground movement.

Fracking also uses a lot of fresh water. TOO much fresh water. This fracking solution has been contaminating water wells and the gas seeping up through the ground after fracking is causing water to ... ignite? (Movie Gasland which I posted some time ago)

There are many reasons these people are protesting this new venture. Fracking is dangerous, makes the ground unstable and contaminates water tables.

[cybercoma]

A lot of New Brunswickers are on well water as well. People that live in cities don't seem to understand that wells are still the way they do things in most parts of this province.

[GostHacked]

A lot of New Brunswickers are on well water as well. People that live in cities don't seem to understand that wells are still the way they do things in most parts of this province.

I was in the market for a house recently and I was looking out of town and once you get about 15KMs out, you are most likely on a well. And I know for sure there is some fracking going on around here, I just don't know exactly where they are.

[Argus]

This is not a treaty issue and the protesters are pretty miffed that the news is turning it into that.

I agree. It's a law and order issue. They either follow the law or get arrested. I have no sympathy for their behaviour.

[Argus]

There was 1 person that the protesters didn't recognize who had the molotovs. That's coming from over a dozen people I know that are involved in that protest.

And did he have the guns too? And were the guys who attacked the cops on the video also unknown to them?

[Argus]

Apparently police provocateurs might.

Lacking the slightest evidence, or any real reasoning in support, such statements amount to paranoid nonsense.