Canada Spying Revelations in Brazil

[bleeding heart]

Spying, energy/oil concerns...what a shocker.

(No, no, it's always and only about terrorism and security! No doubt our PM will indulge in this same sort of adolescent, laughable drivel as the British and Americans have been trying to pass off as sober explanation.)

The Brazilian authorities are expressing anger that the Canadian Government has so far refused to offer any explanation at all.

Greenwald, who was questioned about Canada's behavior in the Senate there, says there are a lot more documents about Canada's role in recent spying scandals.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/TV%20Shows/The%20National/ID/2411428440/

Edited October 14, 2013 by bleeding heart

[kimmy]

Canada's security is clearly convinced that Brazil's ministry of energy and natural resources is a hive of potential security threats.

Obviously Canada would never hack into the Brazilian government's internal information for reasons that didn't pertain to national security, despite Canada's mining industry's vast commercial interests in the region. It's utterly unthinkable that our government would assist its most influential supporters in such a blatantly unethical way.

-k

[bleeding heart]

Canada's security is clearly convinced that Brazil's ministry of energy and natural resources is a hive of potential security threats.

Obviously Canada would never hack into the Brazilian government's internal information for reasons that didn't pertain to national security, despite Canada's mining industry's vast commercial interests in the region. It's utterly unthinkable that our government would assist its most influential supporters in such a blatantly unethical way.

-k

Nope, it's just not the Canadian way.

[Argus]

I still haven't seen convincing evidence Canada was spying on Brazil. What we saw released looked more like a demo of what they _could_ do if they wanted to, an exercice, in other words, much like war gaming. From what I've read CSES does those sorts of gaming out what they could do fairly regularly, very much like the military does.

And logically, why would we be interested in Brazil? Does anyone really think Brazil has some sort of high-tech mining techniques no one else knows about? It's not like the military. This stuff is not secret. Once someone develops a better power shovel he doesn't hide it, he sells it.

I've heard it suggested from one "activist" that Canada regularly meets with hundreds of Canadian companies, and that it could pass along insider information from the Brazilians. That, on the surface, is a ludicrous suggestion. Yes, they do indeed meet regularly with Canadian companies to brief and warn them on possible industrial espionage. But the idea they would be passing on secret information obtained from spying on other countries beggars belief.

Remember the saying, two can keep a secret when one is dead? The notion CSES meets with hundreds of Canadian companies to pass along insider info and that none of the people in those companies have leaked that is simply impossible. If they started doing that my belief is it would take about a week, max, to leak to the media.

[ReeferMadness]

Just one more case in the long, sad saga of Chairman Harper lowering Canada's international reputation. How low can it go?

[bleeding heart]

Just one more case in the long, sad saga of Chairman Harper lowering Canada's international reputation. How low can it go?

I'm a little more ambivalent on that particular point. Yes, of course, perceived wrongdoing by the Federal Government of Canada can ultimately be laid, at least more or less, at the PM's feet. But it's not something peculiar to his character; rather, it's an (international) institutional matter. As we see, there are both liberal and conservative governments involved in this, and both liberal and conservative sycophants (in the public, but most notably in the media) who support and defend it.

That's not to let Harper off the hook; only to suggest this isn't specifically one of those "Harperisms" that get his opponents riled up.

[bleeding heart]

I still haven't seen convincing evidence Canada was spying on Brazil. What we saw released looked more like a demo of what they _could_ do if they wanted to, an exercice, in other words, much like war gaming. From what I've read CSES does those sorts of gaming out what they could do fairly regularly, very much like the military does.

That is indeed the claim made by a former high-ranking member of Canada's spy service. Given the source, the claim carries close to zero worth and zero information. (That's not to say it couldn't be true...only that the claim itself is close to worthless, especially since the denials of such activity are a given, automatic, no matter the facts.)

But if that's so, then the onus is on Canada to demonstrate this...on the basic democratic principle that the onus is on authorities to justify their behavior, rather than the other way round.

And logically, why would we be interested in Brazil? Does anyone really think Brazil has some sort of high-tech mining techniques no one else knows about? It's not like the military. This stuff is not secret. Once someone develops a better power shovel he doesn't hide it, he sells it.

By this logic, and it is in fact plainly implied by what you say, industrial espionage does not exist.

And anyway, what makes you think that such spying, if true, is about industrial techniques? I haven't heard anyone suggest this. It could be about potential opportunities, costs, plans...things that matter in the competitive business world.

Despite what some people think, it isn't as if a food company would spy on Coca Cola to steal their recipe. That's just silly. There are other reasons.

Edited October 15, 2013 by bleeding heart

[PIK]

LOL ,this is nothing, it means nothing and it will change nothing, everyone does it and everyone that is serious about the welfare of thier country will do it. But this case is really a nothing. But what it did prove by the actions of Thomas Mulcair that we know now he will not stand up for this country.And anybody that lives here and yet go berserk over osmething as foolish as this, ask yourselves, I am doing this because it is wrong or just because I hate harper I will embarress my own country to make him look bad.

Edited October 15, 2013 by PIK

[GostHacked]

Brazil bought one of Canada's largest mining conglomerates.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2006-10-24/vale-buys-control-of-canadian-nickel-miner-inco-update4-.html

Cia. Vale do Rio Doce paid $13.3 billion to acquire control of Inco Ltd., the world's second-largest nickel maker, putting the Brazilian company on course to become the top nickel miner by 2009.

Rio de Janeiro-based Vale, the world's largest iron-ore producer, said in an e-mail statement today that 75.66 percent of Inco shares were tendered in the offer, for which Vale paid C$15 billion ($13.3 billion). Vale said it's extending the offer until midnight Nov. 3 to acquire the remaining shares.

``Vale's move has a great strategic impact because the company will be much better positioned to meet the growing demand for metals worldwide,'' Demian Fiocca, president of Brazil's Development Bank, said in an interview in Rio de Janeiro. The bank owns 7 percent of Vale's total capital and an 11.5 percent stake in Valepar, the holding company that controls the miner with a 52.3 percent stake.

[bleeding heart]

LOL ,this is nothing, it means nothing and it will change nothing, everyone does it and everyone that is serious about the welfare of thier country will do it. But this case is really a nothing. But what it did prove by the actions of Thomas Mulcair that we know now he will not stand up for this country.And anybody that lives here and yet go berserk over osmething as foolish as this, ask yourselves, I am doing this because it is wrong or just because I hate harper I will embarress my own country to make him look bad.

If you read what I just wrote, a couple of posts up, about Harper re this issue, you obviously wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

[Argus]

By this logic, and it is in fact plainly implied by what you say, industrial espionage does not exist.

Sure it exists. If you have large corporations which are owned by the government in question, or which are owned by 'friends' of a fairly unethical government. Think China or Russia, for example, where every major corporation is inextricably linked with high government insiders. The government spy agent could easily pass industrial secrets on. It could also find insider knowledge it could pass on to wealthy investors there who could make fortunes on the stock market by buying/selling in advance.

But does anyon honestly think there are large Canadian mining companies which the Canadian government is willing to spy for? And do you not think information would quickly get out, given our free system, and the movement of people around between companies?

And anyway, what makes you think that such spying, if true, is about industrial techniques? I haven't heard anyone suggest this. It could be about potential opportunities, costs, plans...things that matter in the competitive business world.

But again, you'd have to be regularly passing such information on to Canadian companies, and you'd have to rely on everyone at that company who knows about the information not passing that on to anyone else so it doesn't get into the media. Russia and China don't have to worry about such things for they don't have a free media. Nor do they have the rule of law. Anyone caught blabbing could simply be shot or sent to an insane asylum. In Canada they could go on TV and talk all about it without any real problems.

I just don't see the motivation for Canada to be spying on a third world country. There's no special technology there, and the government can't safely pass secret info on to Canadian businesses.

[bleeding heart]

I just don't see the motivation for Canada to be spying on a third world country. There's no special technology there, and the government can't safely pass secret info on to Canadian businesses.

Well, like I said, I'm not convinced you're wrong. hopefully we'll find out. I'm interested to see what the Canadian Government has to say about the matter; and of course I'm interested in the "many" further revelations about Canada's involvement with spying, particularly in concert with the US and UK spy agencies, which Greenwald says is forthcoming.

[Moonlight Graham]

A country spying on another country? What a news story!! What a shocking international controversy of epic proportions!

I'd be much more disappointed if were weren't spying on Brazil. In fact, I hope Canada is spying on pretty much every government on the planet. They're sure trying to spy on us, or at least have the desire to. If Brazil or any other country weren't spying on us it would only because they don't have the money or other resources to do so.

What is Canada supposed to do, rely on the spy efforts of US or other allies for our own intelligence?....or more accurately, rely on the intelligence they choose to share with us (saving the good stuff for themselves of course)? That's assuming they wouldn't lie to us. And we know the US and other allies would NEVER lie to us about intelligence! (cough...Colin Powell...cough).

What I'm far more concerned about is if the Canadian government is spying on us, as well as what we are doing to prevent other nations from spying on us. Including the US, our "best friend and ally", and the whole NSA PRISM bullcrap.

[bleeding heart]

A country spying on another country? What a news story!! What a shocking international controversy of epic proportions!

I'd be much more disappointed if were weren't spying on Brazil. In fact, I hope Canada is spying on pretty much every government on the planet.

Sure...assuming that the spying is a benign effort to stop evildoers from doing harm to innocent Canadians, that it's genuinely in the interest of Canadian citizens for matters of safety, and that spying isn't used for any uglier, nefarious purposes, and that it's not in fact part of a sycophantic assistance to the American Empire.

But since I don't have such religious devotion to the nobility of the Canadian National Security State--or its essential honesty and decency--I'll wait till more evidence is in.

[dre]

A country spying on another country? What a news story!! What a shocking international controversy of epic proportions!

I'd be much more disappointed if were weren't spying on Brazil. In fact, I hope Canada is spying on pretty much every government on the planet. They're sure trying to spy on us, or at least have the desire to. If Brazil or any other country weren't spying on us it would only because they don't have the money or other resources to do so.

What is Canada supposed to do, rely on the spy efforts of US or other allies for our own intelligence?....or more accurately, rely on the intelligence they choose to share with us (saving the good stuff for themselves of course)? That's assuming they wouldn't lie to us. And we know the US and other allies would NEVER lie to us about intelligence! (cough...Colin Powell...cough).

What I'm far more concerned about is if the Canadian government is spying on us, as well as what we are doing to prevent other nations from spying on us. Including the US, our "best friend and ally", and the whole NSA PRISM bullcrap.

Spying on other countries and spying on us are effectively one in the same. As soon as you give them the lattitude to conduct all this secret activity its only a matter of time before they point it at you.

This activity does not enhance our security it jeapardizes it.

[Moonlight Graham]

Spying on other countries and spying on us are effectively one in the same. As soon as you give them the lattitude to conduct all this secret activity its only a matter of time before they point it at you.

This just sounds like fluff. How are they the same? One is us, one isn't. Our state can't spy on Canadians if the proper oversight is put into place. This clearly hasn't been done in the NSA, for instance.

This activity does not enhance our security it jeapardizes it.

And what if most every other country is doing it but us? It leaves us at a disadvantage, which jeopardizes our security. We need to play the game or be left behind, its our choice.

[bleeding heart]

And what sort of national security threat is potentially posed by the Brazilian Ministry of Mines and Energy?

[bleeding heart]

This just sounds like fluff. How are they the same? One is us, one isn't. Our state can't spy on Canadians if the proper oversight is put into place.

On that note, and keeping in mind that spying on Canadian citizens (anywhere, not just here) is flatly illegal:

Critics are urging the Harper government to lift the veil that shrouds Canada's electronic eavesdropping agency in the wake of an overseer's report that suggests ordinary Canadians may have been illegally spied on.

In his final report to Parliament before he leaves his post, commissioner Robert Decary says some of the spying activities at Communications Security Establishment Canada may have affected Canadians in the last year.

However, thanks to poor record-keeping, Decary — a retired judge who has been the agency's independent watchdog since 2010 — said he can't be sure.

"A number of CSEC records relating to these activities were unclear or incomplete," said the report, tabled Wednesday.

"After in-depth and lengthy review, I was unable to reach a definitive conclusion about compliance or non-compliance with the law."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/security-watchdog-says-agency-may-be-spying-on-canadians-1.1400394

So the watchdog in question has evidently come across some troubling information...but, coincidentally, the spy agency has kept "shoddy records," so he can't be sure.

Edited October 15, 2013 by bleeding heart

[Moonlight Graham]

So the watchdog in question has evidently come across some troubling information...but, coincidentally, the spy agency has kept "shoddy records," so he can't be sure.

Yes how convenient. Wouldn't put it past this government to try something like that, since they have little respect for Canadians' privacy (cough...recording Canadians' conversations in airports...cough). There has to be insanely strict and vigilant oversight in covert affairs to prevent abuse. So much potential for abuse in hiding beyond the "we can't tell you because it will compromise national security" excuse etc.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Moonlight Graham

[bleeding heart]

Another interesting tidbit or two: The Guardian has reported that CSEC meets with Canadian energy companies.

Now, the idea of advising them on matters like corporate espionage, potential terrorist threats and the like seems reasonable enough. But that's not the limit of the relationship.

They also--according to insiders--are building a "trusting relationship" so that in future CSEC can advise these companies "off the record."

???

"Off the record"?

Why?

And what can CSEC tell these companies about "challenges from environmental groups" if the agency doesn't, as it claims (and by law) spy on Canadian citizens? Is it only foreign "environmental groups" on which they secretively gather information?

The Canadian government agency that allegedly hacked into the Brazilian mining and energy ministry has participated in secret meetings in Ottawa where Canadian security agencies briefed energy corporations, it has emerged.

Claims of spying on the ministry by Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) come amid the Canadian government's increasingly aggressive promotion of resource corporations at home and abroad, including unprecedented surveillance and intelligence sharing with companies.

According to freedom of information documents obtained by the Guardian, the meetings conducted twice a year since 2005 involved federal ministries, spy and police agencies, and representatives from scores of companies who obtained high-level security clearance.

Meetings were officially billed to discuss "threats" to energy infrastructure but also covered "challenges to energy projects from environmental groups", "cyber security initiatives" and "economic and corporate espionage".

The documents heavily redacted agendas do not indicate that any international espionage was shared by CSEC officials, but the meetings were an opportunity for government agencies and companies to develop "ongoing trusting relations" that would help them exchange information "off the record", wrote an official from the Natural Resources ministry in 2010.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/09/canadian-spies-met-energy-firms-documents

Edited October 15, 2013 by bleeding heart

[bleeding heart]

Yes how convenient. Wouldn't put it past this government to try something like that, since they have little respect for Canadians' privacy (cough...recording Canadians' conversations in airports...cough). There has to be insanely strict and vigilant oversight in covert affairs to prevent abuse. So much potential for abuse in hiding beyond the "we can't tell you because it will compromise national security" excuse etc.

Exactly. I actually agree with you, if provisionally, about the use of spying apparatus...for any country.

But, as you say, strict oversight is needed.

The mere fact that the overseer cannot declare one way or another, because of the spy agency's "shoddy record-keeping," means by definition that they have already failed the "strict oversight" test.

I have little doubt this was intentional.

[dre]

This just sounds like fluff. How are they the same? One is us, one isn't. Our state can't spy on Canadians if the proper oversight is put into place. This clearly hasn't been done in the NSA, for instance.

And what if most every other country is doing it but us? It leaves us at a disadvantage, which jeopardizes our security. We need to play the game or be left behind, its our choice.

This just sounds like fluff. How are they the same? One is us, one isn't. Our state can't spy on Canadians if the proper oversight is put into place. This clearly hasn't been done in the NSA, for instance.

Because once you give government the tools and mandate to do all this stuff in secret you can no longer keep them honest. The ONLY proper oversight into government activity is transparency.

And what if most every other country is doing it but us? It leaves us at a disadvantage, which jeopardizes our security. We need to play the game or be left behind, its our choice.

That is the conventional wisdom, and I used to accept it at face value but I stopped believing it some time ago. When you allow people to act in secrecy you virtually guarantee corruption and impropriety, and these things put you at risk.

It seems to me that all these central intelligence agencies actually cause a lot more insecurity than they prevent. Take this Brazil thing for example... the actions of these people could create an adversarial relationship between us and then that could have real tangible effects on our relationship, trade, etc. Or look at how the CIA was tricked by an Iraqi dissident to blunder the US into a war that killed thousands of people, and cost trillions of dollars. Or look at how the CIA training afghan militants to fight the Soviets came back to haunt Americans.

I know it seems like a big deviation from the accepted norms, but I actually do believe that we would be the most safe and secure if we had complete transparency into everything the government did. They wouldnt be able to sneak around and serve other interests besides ours, and they wouldnt be able to get us into trouble.

[dre]

Exactly. I actually agree with you, if provisionally, about the use of spying apparatus...for any country.

But, as you say, strict oversight is needed.

There IS no strict oversight of ANYTHING the government does if the voting public cannot consider its actions at the polls. Theres no more reason to trust an oversight mechanism than there is to just trust the spooks. We can either see whats going on or we cant.

Its an oxy moron. The people you would be counting to set up this "oversight" are the exactly same folks that have already decided they need to have all this secrecy. You will just end up with things like these FISA courts that do nothing besides rubber stamp stuff.

Its a little like counting on the fox to patch up the holes in the fence around your chicken coup. Its not gonna work, because the fox wants to eat the damn chickens.

[Topaz]

Question, do you think the PM is allowing them to spy on American companies?? Probably not, he LOVES America, interesting to know, probably spying on each other.

[bleeding heart]

There IS no strict oversight of ANYTHING the government does if the voting public cannot consider its actions at the polls. Theres no more reason to trust an oversight mechanism than there is to just trust the spooks. We can either see whats going on or we cant.

Its an oxy moron. The people you would be counting to set up this "oversight" are the exactly same folks that have already decided they need to have all this secrecy. You will just end up with things like these FISA courts that do nothing besides rubber stamp stuff.

Its a little like counting on the fox to patch up the holes in the fence around your chicken coup. Its not gonna work, because the fox wants to eat the damn chickens.

I got to give you these points, Dre. Well said, and food for thought.