Ontario Math Scores Down

[cybercoma]

Frankly, I think high school students near the end of their time in school should learn about the development of Western thought. They should learn Hammurabi, Socrates/Plato/Aristotle, Bacon/Descartes/Copernicus to Derrida/Foucault/Althusser. I'm hesitant to say students should be learning "practical" skills because what's practical when they're in school may no longer be practical when they're in the workplace. Practical changes.

[AngusThermopyle]

With all due respect, I find your tone insulting. Not everyone needs calculus and trig and the social sciences and humanities do valuable research.

Sorry Cyber, no insult was meant to you. My comment was directed more towards Socialist as it has become apparent to me that this individual appears to simply parrot what he is told without applying any analysis or critical thought to it.

[cybercoma]

Sorry Cyber, no insult was meant to you. My comment was directed more towards Socialist as it has become apparent to me that this individual appears to simply parrot what he is told without applying any analysis or critical thought to it.

I highly doubt this is a "real" person. It seems much more likely that it is a particular someone playing with a gimmick account.

[socialist]

A parent of a kid in my class wants to know why kids don't have to learn how to multiply 3 digits by 3 digits. I said because that is what we all have smart phones for. Why waste time doing somethin on paper that takes 5 seconds on a phone or a calculator. These are the dumb questions we face from people stuck with a 50s mentality.

[guyser]

I went in to see my sons teacher today, wanted to know why long multiplication isnt taught.

The dumbass teacher gave me the typical stupid answer of everyone having a phone. I asked about actual practical applications of math when a phone isnt available or readily useable and I got a blank stare.

Pretty sure this teacher isnt in it for the long haul. Hopefully they run the ignorant man out of the school.

[Bonam]

I went in to see my sons teacher today, wanted to know why long multiplication isnt taught.

The dumbass teacher gave me the typical stupid answer of everyone having a phone. I asked about actual practical applications of math when a phone isnt available or readily useable and I got a blank stare.

More importantly, doing things like long multiplication trains the mind for that kind of mathematical thinking. When you have to do binomial theorem, synthetic division, completing the squares, or a variety of different techniques in calculus, you'll be doing all the same operations symbolically instead of with numbers. Of course, the answer to that might be... well, everyone has wolfram alpha on their phones. And some techniques really will not be necessary in the future, just as people no longer need to learn how to use log tables, for example.

But the mental training and mental discipline that people gain from doing math problems will always be applicable to something. I can tell you that in the workplace where I work, we rarely use calculators when analyzing things for initial design. When we sit in a meeting and work out a physics problem or design something, all numbers are quickly estimated and all math (whether arithmetic, algebra, or simple calculus) is quickly done in the head. It's way quicker for your brain to calculate something than for you to use your fingers (or your voice) to punch it into a phone/calculator/computer and read the answer. People going into technical careers will continue to benefit from being proficient in math.

[socialist]

I went in to see my sons teacher today, wanted to know why long multiplication isnt taught.

The dumbass teacher gave me the typical stupid answer of everyone having a phone. I asked about actual practical applications of math when a phone isnt available or readily useable and I got a blank stare.

Pretty sure this teacher isnt in it for the long haul. Hopefully they run the ignorant man out of the school.

Actually, you are the fool here. Long multiplication is a waste of time, and it doesn't foster understanding. Your comment would be good for a few chuckles at any Faculty of Education in the country. It's not the 50s anymore, and you are by no means qualified to speak on educational theories.

[dre]

Sorry, I didn't realize. The site isn`t very clear about the cost to register.

Well, from memory, he talks about how Algebra isn`t necessary in life, generally, and that the skills required to master it are largely innate. That it`s misguided to force all highschoolers to pass it.

He talks about the history of Algebra in education, and how it was actually removed from high school subject matter in the early 20th century (the 1920s ?) but reinstated when Cold War fears sparked a myth that Russia was gaining superiority through their teaching of math to the masses.

Practical application isnt the only reason for education though. Part of it is about passing down, and building on a body of knowledge and a mode of thought.

The vast majority of workers dont use any advanced mathematics at all. You could make the same case about teaching ANY math beyond grade 5.

[Michael Hardner]

Actually, you are the fool here. Long multiplication is a waste of time, and it doesn't foster understanding. Your comment would be good for a few chuckles at any Faculty of Education in the country. It's not the 50s anymore, and you are by no means qualified to speak on educational theories.

Actually, socialist, the mark of a true professional - education or otherwise - is professionalism. Why not take the opportunity here to educate people as to how these ideas come forward, rather than to mock them ?

[Michael Hardner]

Practical application isnt the only reason for education though. Part of it is about passing down, and building on a body of knowledge and a mode of thought.

The vast majority of workers dont use any advanced mathematics at all. You could make the same case about teaching ANY math beyond grade 5.

I concur, but some problem solving is just beyond the abilities of people; people who are more than proficient at other things. I see the benefit of getting students to think but algebra is only one aspect of thinking, and only one aspect of problem solving. You can be good at other kinds of math, even, and be bad at algebra.

[dre]

I concur, but some problem solving is just beyond the abilities of people; people who are more than proficient at other things. I see the benefit of getting students to think but algebra is only one aspect of thinking, and only one aspect of problem solving. You can be good at other kinds of math, even, and be bad at algebra.

I DO agree that one size fits all solutions can be problematic and waste resources.

We should look at some of the more successful education systems in the world and see what we can learn from them. The top systems separate higher learning from other tracts at a much earlier age, and incorporate things like trade schooling into the k12 curriculum for students that have no aptitude or interest in academics or polytechnics. They also separate polytechnics from pure academics, and get better results than us even with shorter school days and school years. Some of them have a lot more contribution from the private sector as well, both in funding and designing cirruculum, so that the private sector can get the labor force it needs, which in most cases is not nerds... its plumbers, electricians, it staff etc. Students are able to exit the system sideways instead of just vertically. The tradeoff is that some students will not realize their potential to the degree they might have if we kept trying to force them into higher learning. Some of these countries have a more homgenous population as well, so you dont have blacks, mexicans, or indians crying foul that they are statistically more likely to end up as tradesmen or laborers.

I cant read your article though so maybe my response is off-point.

Edited September 11, 2013 by dre

[The_Squid]

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Edited September 11, 2013 by The_Squid

[Michael Hardner]

I DO agree that one size fits all solutions can be problematic and waste resources.

We should look at some of the more successful education systems in the world and see what we can learn from them. The top systems separate higher learning from other tracts at a much earlier age, and incorporate things like trade schooling into the k12 curriculum for students that have no aptitude or interest in academics or polytechnics. They also separate polytechnics from pure academics, and get better results than us even with shorter school days and school years. Some of them have a lot more contribution from the private sector as well, both in funding and designing cirruculum, so that the private sector can get the labor force it needs, which in most cases is not nerds... its plumbers, electricians, it staff etc. Students are able to exit the system sideways instead of just vertically. The tradeoff is that some students will not realize their potential to the degree they might have if we kept trying to force them into higher learning. Some of these countries have a more homgenous population as well, so you dont have blacks, mexicans, or indians crying foul that they are statistically more likely to end up as tradesmen or laborers.

I cant read your article though so maybe my response is off-point.

No, I agree: I think we're in a time of great change so things need to be re-examined. The status quo is very hard to change, though, with entrenched positions from all around. For example, do we really need 12 or 13 years of education ? Can we use volunteers such as parents in the classroom to a much greater degree ? Can we bring in private sector or create public companies that allow students to work and learn ?

The system is too static to really think about such things.

[socialist]

No, I agree: I think we're in a time of great change so things need to be re-examined. The status quo is very hard to change, though, with entrenched positions from all around. For example, do we really need 12 or 13 years of education ? Can we use volunteers such as parents in the classroom to a much greater degree ? Can we bring in private sector or create public companies that allow students to work and learn ?

The system is too static to really think about such things.

Sorry, but parents aren't qualified educators. They don't understand the latest educational theories. It is the 21st century, not the 19th. Long multiplication, long division...and things that can be done 5 seconds on a smartphone are not necessary anymore. Cursive writing is not necessary anymore as everything is done on computers.

[Michael Hardner]

Sorry, but parents aren't qualified educators. They don't understand the latest educational theories. It is the 21st century, not the 19th. Long multiplication, long division...and things that can be done 5 seconds on a smartphone are not necessary anymore. Cursive writing is not necessary anymore as everything is done on computers.

Where did I say they were ? There are lots of examples of work that needs to be done that doesn't need a qualified educator and they use parents as volunteers today.

[Mighty AC]

An increased use of volunteers trained to do specific tasks would be a great asset. However, I expect unions would fight any increase that could potentially reduce the flow of dues to their coffers. In my area they already prevent monetary donations from being spent on educational materials, because they believe that would allow school boards to reduce their budgets.

[GostHacked]

Sorry, but parents aren't qualified educators. They don't understand the latest educational theories. It is the 21st century, not the 19th. Long multiplication, long division...and things that can be done 5 seconds on a smartphone are not necessary anymore. Cursive writing is not necessary anymore as everything is done on computers.

Then use your smartphone for some logical time frames. Most of the educational processes and such were done in the 20th century, not the 19th.

Also are you a parent? If so regardless of your 'education' means nothing simply because you are a parent.

[jacee]

An increased use of volunteers trained to do specific tasks would be a great asset. However, I expect unions would fight any increase that could potentially reduce the flow of dues to their coffers. In my area they already prevent monetary donations from being spent on educational materials, because they believe that would allow school boards to reduce their budgets.

Public shools are allowed to use donations for 'extras', but not for mandated curriculum delivery because that puts schools in disadvantaged areas in an even more disadvantaged position.

[Mighty AC]

No, I agree: I think we're in a time of great change so things need to be re-examined. The status quo is very hard to change, though, with entrenched positions from all around.

The system is too static to really think about such things.

This is an interesting article about what Michael Hardner mentioned here above.

Inquiry and project based learning methods have proven to be very effective at honing the skills we say we want for students. It provides all those great C-words like creativity, collaboration, critical thinking and communication. The problem is it doesn't fit well into our industrial education model designed more for control and order than learning. Changing this status quo is proving to be difficult. We can handle, bolt-on, incremental tweaks but paradigm shifts with many moving parts are very, very hard to tackle. It's worth a read, you know unless, of course, you have a smart phone app that will read and summarize it for you.

http://blogs.kqed.org/mindshift/2013/09/reinventing-school-new-learning-environment-ecosystems-for-inquiry-learning/

[socialist]

People don't realize how stressful teaching is. The teacher bashers will never get it.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/50-hour-work-week-reality-for-teachers-223252551.html

[socialist]

The lack of depth and knowledge of the typical parent amazes me. Take a look at this story. A school division in Manitoba has introduced Ipads for all junor high students. This shows innovation. Ipads allow kids to learn while having fun. Ipads keep learners engaged. Then read the mostly silly comments below the article. People have no clue about education. People have no clue how to engage students. People don't realize that when learners are having fun, it makes learning that much more meaningful. People worry about costs and tax dollars. This is tax dollars put to great use. Who cares if your property taxes o up a few dollars. This generation will be our future leaders. Ipads help learners connect and be a part of the global village. I use Ipads all the time and the kids love it. Ipads can be used for all subjects. Ipads allow something borin like math become fun and exciting.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/ipads-for-winnipeg-students-the-pros-and-cons-of-high-tech-learning-1.1438691

Edited September 14, 2013 by socialist

[GostHacked]

People don't realize how stressful teaching is. The teacher bashers will never get it.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/50-hour-work-week-reality-for-teachers-223252551.html

No one here is bashing teachers. Some are bashing this new approach to teaching. Would help to understand the difference when making a statement like that.

[socialist]

Here is an article from the National Post with regards to math. What do university professors know about teaching young learners who come to school with all kinds of baggage?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/13/frustrated-professors-convince-schools-to-step-back-from-new-math-and-go-back-to-basics/

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Frankly, I think high school students near the end of their time in school should learn about the development of Western thought. They should learn Hammurabi, Socrates/Plato/Aristotle, Bacon/Descartes/Copernicus to Derrida/Foucault/Althusser. I'm hesitant to say students should be learning "practical" skills because what's practical when they're in school may no longer be practical when they're in the workplace. Practical changes.

It's not about learning precise practical skills. It's about developing the process or learning and practicing practical skills. Using a hammer/saw is useful, using and maintaining a computer is useful, basic car auto maintenance is useful, etc.

Just as much of the academic knowledge is not fully revelant to their life but, teaching them to learn, problem solve and think is.

[johnny902]

I wonder if the reason for the low score is that most kids are using calculators and not their brain and how many teachers were taught on the calculator themselves. I don't know what the math programs are like now, but they need to teach kids about business math sometime during their time in school, so they know how to budget and know what a budget is and that if you spend more they you earn, you are in big trouble!!

That's called common sense. You can't teach that. Lol.