Racism or Secularism? Quebec looking to ban all religious garb.

[carepov]

Safeguards are only as good as those safeguarding them. In 2-3 generations from now anything can happen so why is it so outlandish for some to think that it can never happen?

The probability of Canada adopting any significant part of Sharia law with 2-3 generations is negligible.

Canada's Muslim population in 2031 is projected to grow to 6.3-7.3 %

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/91-551-x/91-551-x2010001-eng.pdf (p.25)

What will it be in 2050, 2070? 10%, 20%, surely no more than 25%? Of those, how many will support/push for Sharia Law?

For reference the world's Muslim population is growing by 2% per year and by 2050 will make up 25% of the world population, up from today's 21%

http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html

[bleeding heart]

What will it be in 2050, 2070? 10%, 20%, surely no more than 25%? Of those, how many will support/push for Sharia Law?

And that's just it. Raw demographics aren't the only matter under question; the question is how many adherents will behave in manners we see as destructive to our current laws and practices.

[Black Dog]

Safeguards are only as good as those safeguarding them. In 2-3 generations from now anything can happen so why is it so outlandish for some to think that it can never happen?

"Anything can happen" also includes the possibility that nothing happens. A bit broad, no? Can you be a little more specific as to what you think could happen?

Also, Cite what? As soon as you can site the contrary to that statement about Islamic devotion compared to Christian devotion then we'll have a discussion.

You make the claim, you back it up. Not doing your legwork.

Muslims are indeed more literalistic, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that. Burn a copy of the Bible today and video tape it, and post it on Youtube and then do that to the Quran and then come back and we'll talk..

And what is the point you are supposed to be making here? We aren't talking about the respective levels of religious devotion, but your claim that "Muslims are much more likely to put Allah before country and countrymen/women" than others.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Black Dog

[Icebound]

So you're trying to compare burning the Quran to a CFL game?

No. I am trying to show you that ANY group of people, that are invested in some symbol of their union, may get violent when that symbol is attacked..... and especially if they are high on something. High on excessive patriotism, high on religious fervor, or high on just plain beer.

Outrage is not unique to Muslims, and yet the world continues to exist.

...

[Icebound]

The reasons I say this is that Muslims are much more likely to put Allah before country and countrymen/women than any Christian or Jew so it would not surprise me if Islam does play a bigger role in the West as other faiths decline.

There is a well known correlation between religious fervor and poverty. As Muslims become more affluent, religion will become less important. If they DO NOT become more affluent relative to the rest of the world, then of course, anything can happen and DoP can gloat in his successful predictions.

But that, again, is not unique to Muslims.

If the North American capitalist economy continues the way it has.... and the rich-poor division keeps growing.... then the first jihad that we may see will not be by Muslims. It will be poverty-level wage-earners burning down the executives and politicians gated communities.

...

[roy baty]

"Anything can happen" also includes the possibility that nothing happens. A bit broad, no? Can you be a little more specific as to what you think could happen?

You make the claim, you back it up. Not doing your legwork.

And what is the point you are supposed to be making here? We aren't talking about the respective levels of religious devotion, but your claim that "Muslims are much more likely to put Allah before country and countrymen/women" than others.

Obviously you just don't get it. Thanks for replying though.

[roy baty]

There is a well known correlation between religious fervor and poverty. As Muslims become more affluent, religion will become less important. If they DO NOT become more affluent relative to the rest of the world, then of course, anything can happen and DoP can gloat in his successful predictions.

But that, again, is not unique to Muslims.

If the North American capitalist economy continues the way it has.... and the rich-poor division keeps growing.... then the first jihad that we may see will not be by Muslims. It will be poverty-level wage-earners burning down the executives and politicians gated communities.

...

Indeed. I agree that it is not unique to Muslims. At this point in time, just more globally predominant and perhaps correlated with poverty but don't forget propaganda from religious and political dictators in control of prominently Islamic nations. You are absolutely right, class warfare is also likely just around the corner in North America to add to all the existing chaos as a result of poverty, poor leadership and yes propaganda spun by the media and special interest groups. That's a whole other thread I am sure. Thanks for the reply.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam is the way it is because of poverty? OK.....if u say so.

[Black Dog]

Obviously you just don't get it. Thanks for replying though.

Weak sauce.

[hitops]

There is a well known correlation between religious fervor and poverty. As Muslims become more affluent, religion will become less important. If they DO NOT become more affluent relative to the rest of the world, then of course, anything can happen and DoP can gloat in his successful predictions.

But that, again, is not unique to Muslims.

If the North American capitalist economy continues the way it has.... and the rich-poor division keeps growing.... then the first jihad that we may see will not be by Muslims. It will be poverty-level wage-earners burning down the executives and politicians gated communities.

That already happened in Russia and China, with the result being even more poverty-level wage earners....those that didn't just get eliminate that is. The capitalist economy is what has raised more people out of poverty than any other system in history. The middle class exists, because of the capitalist model. Before it, there were only rich and poor and very little in between.

[Boges]

Quebec, you've officially been pwned!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/09/12/oshawa_hospital_uses_quebec_controversy_as_recruitment_tool.html

[The_Squid]

I wouldn't want a nurse or doctor tending to me while wearing a niqab.... would you?

Edited September 13, 2013 by The_Squid

[guyser]

I wouldn't want a nurse or doctor tending to me while wearing a niqab.... would you?

And the likelihood of that is zilch so whats your point?

[The_Squid]

Apparently, this hospital doesn't care what religious garb their employees wear... The point is, they do care. It's only a matter of degree...

I don't mind this Quebec initiative as much as some people seem to. I also don't think that religious garb should be given higher priority than safety... turbans vs. hardhats, for instance.

I am also redneck enough to think that religious garb should not take precedence over a traditional uniform, like mounties being able to wear turbans and forgo part of their uniforms because of their religion.

I think Canada has gone too far in valuing ones personal religious rights over societal values and secular government.

[guyser]

I am also redneck enough to think that religious garb should not take precedence over a traditional uniform, like mounties being able to wear turbans and forgo part of their uniforms because of their religion.

I think Canada has gone too far in valuing ones personal religious rights over societal values and secular government.

Considering the Mouintie uniform has changed dramatically over the years and decades......what was that about tradition again?

[Boges]

I wouldn't want a nurse or doctor tending to me while wearing a niqab.... would you?

That's not a Niqab, it's a Hijab. I doubt nurses would be allowed to wear Niqabs in hospitals, but that's about public safety and not xenophobia like this proposed Quebec law.

I wouldn't have a problem dealing with someone wearing a turban in a hospital either or a Yamaka, both would be forbidden for public servants in Quebec if this law is passed.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Boges

[scribblet]

Actually, is it too much to believe that gov't employees should be neutral, and seen to be neutral ? Although I don't think that wearing a yarmulke or a niqab (not the hijab) is really sending anyone a message, those items as well as the cross as jewellery are innocent casualties in a war against face coverings (e.g. hijab). They can't discriminate against one particular piece of clothing so must include all.

They've been pretty heavy handed and have blown it actually, I would imagine eventually it will be rescinded.

edited to correct... Although I don't think that wearing a yarmulke or a niqab (not the hijab) is really sending anyone a message, those items as well as the cross as jewellery are innocent casualties in a war against face coverings (e.g. hijab).

It should read: Although I don't think that wearing a yarmulke or a hijab is really sending anyone a message, those items as well as the cross as jewellery are innocent casualties in a war against face coverings (e.g. niqab orl Burkha )

Edited September 15, 2013 by scribblet

[Rue]

I wouldn't want a nurse or doctor tending to me while wearing a niqab.... woulI could understand if you had a physician who said, you can not get his or her care unless you convert to their religion but what you say is different.

I have a gp who is Indian, a urologist who is a Muslim who wears a covering and has a beard and have had nurses of all kinds.

I am grateful for them all. They have all treated me with respect.

I never once felt my doctor who is a religious Muslim man treated me different.

Maybe I am naïve but this country taught me I could grow up and not apologize for being a Jew and fear being one.

Oh sure sometimes I had to fight with the Irish and French and Italians, etc. in my childhood and we all picked ourselves off after and finished the game. So?

I am sorry but I do not get this fear of Muslims. I am the first to challenge extremist fundamentalists of any religion but if you are asking me to automatically reject a nurse because they are a visible Muslim? Really?

I am not that fearful of people. My attitude is I am grateful for the medical care this country provides and the dedicated professionals who provide it.

I find when people have been ignorant there has been no monopoly on who was ignorant.

Sorry I am on the other side of the fence as you on this. I have no problems with openly gay people or nuns or Muslims or whatever treating me-LOL the fact is who ever is shoving their hands up my wazoo doing the prostate exam annoy me the same way.

I think a lot of what we see in others we project. If you smile at people they smile back. Give them a scowl they scowl back. I think it is that simple sometimes and we mistake it as racism or religious or cultural intolerance when it is not.

I am the first to say, you come to this country, put Canada first. But the minorities who choose to retain their head coverings, why does everyone think they are not proud Canadians? Since when does wearing a turban make a Siekh anti Canadian?

I am assimilated. I wear no garb or garments and doubt I would. However at holocaust memorials or at funerals I wear a covering. I have no idea why but I just do out of respect. I always wear a covering in anyone's house of worship. Again I have no idea why. I just feel that way but I am no religious person nor do I like organized religions and fanaticism or fundamentalism but when it comes to culture I am more comfortable with Edmund Burke classic conservative philosophy which honours and respects individual expression. I am not comfortable with the state initiating and controlling individuality. I think there is an inherent contradiction there.

I see the nation and state organs as necessary for certain regulations and tax collection but being an agent of imposing "culture" uh no. Regulating freedom of expression to prevent hatred or slander or child porn sure. Regulating appropriate forums for where religion or politics should be expressed yes sometimes.

I personally would argue religion and politics has no place in public schools and in places that are supposed to serve all yes. But to go the next step and say, a teacher can't wear a turban or a civil servant can't wear one?

What someone giving me a driver's license can't have a turban? Give me a break.

On the other extreme I totally disagree with the idiot Toronto School Board trying to argue, they should ignore senority when hiring teachers because they should be able to hire based on ethnicity arguing if the students are Vietnamese that automatically means they should have a Vietnamese teacher since the argument is that is what the students and their parents would feel more comfortable with.. B.S. A good teacher is not determined by ethnicity or physical characteristic that is absolute b.s.

On one extreme we go too far with political correctness and at other times we revert to National Socialism. Interestingly it is the leftists in the name of political correctness doing both.

I am an extreme centralist in my biases.

I think Pauline Marois is a facist cow. I also think the Toronto School Board are dominated by a bunch of millionaire socialists who think they are coming up with progressive ideas imposing reverse discrimination and segregation and calling it being culturalluy sensitive.

No you are not being sensitive assuming blacks need black teachers or Vietnamese need Vietnamese teachers. That is patronizing segregation.

I do not care who the phack you are, we all need someone who can read, write, add, subtract, and teach that.

For phack's sake one's ability is not determined simply by ethnicity.

Nothing is as big an equalizer in bringing different peoples together then just being what you are and being honest and the best you can be and treating people as you want to be treated.

Call me naïve but I live it and believe it and experience it. Treat others as you want to be treated and it comes back positive. It is that simple and yet we make a phacking mess out of that concept.

I came home on a Go bus and no one would sit next to a Muslim girl wearing her covering. I deliberately sat down next to her and we engaged in a 50 minute comedy dialogue. She was of all things an engineering student and that was great fodder for terrorist jokes. Unbelievable what she was experiencing and I sure as hell could understand it-it was really no different than what my families went through and yet half way across the world our two ethnicities are in a war-for what? In Canada we can sit in a bus and laugh at the irony of it. That is a big thing man.

I love this country. If you say it must come first yes. If you say don't bring cultural values here that challenge our freedoms I get it. Go the next step and try dictate how people should look, come on that is b.s. as much as it is people coming here expecting to impose backwater religious fundamentalist b.s.

Either is b.s.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Rue

[scribblet]

It’s about keeping Quebec ‘pure laine’, in other words the only true Quebecois are those descended from the original French settlers.

[dre]

And that's just it. Raw demographics aren't the only matter under question; the question is how many adherents will behave in manners we see as destructive to our current laws and practices.

Yes and the reality is while 1st generation immigrants to Canada often stubbornly stick with the customs from their countries of origion, their children rarely do, and their grand children almost never do. And even first generation immigrants start to ditch many of their customs pretty quickly.

The European Social Survey surveyed Mosque attendence, and for the first couple of years Muslim immigrants attend Mosque at a rate of 62%. But after they have lived there for three years it drops to something like 46% (Im grabbing this from memory so I may be off a little).

Chance are that even if our Muslim population DOES reach 20% these people will be watered down Muslims, that would rather hang out at the mall, watch TV, or gawk at cute chicks. They might still check the "muslim" box on a religious questionaire, but make no mistake about it... these people will be watching porn, smoking dope, eating bacon sandwiches, getting drunk and sodomizing their girlfriends out of wedlock and buying them fake tits just like everybody else. Not to mention up to their eyeballs in debt and trying to buy a house, car, boat, RV, boob-job, etc.

Thats why you dont see a lot of car bombings in Canada... people have 5 years worth of payments still to make on that car, and they dont wanna have to walk to the liquor store....

Edited September 16, 2013 by dre

[carepov]

I was very discouraged last week when polls indicated that approx. 60% of Quebeckers favored the charter. Polls are now showing an even split (43-44% for and against). Reasonable Quebeckers are stepping up:

http://quebecinclusif.org/manifeste-2/english/

I hope that as people get more informed the trend continues!

[Boges]

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/3941269

Hope you're happy PQ.

[Black Dog]

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/3941269

Hope you're happy PQ.

I wonder how that guy would feel if I told him "This is our home! Speak English!"

I'd like to think this whole "minority s**ts on other minorities" is one of those things where a kid who get bullied bullies another kid in turn. But Quebec can't really be said to be facing anything in terms of oppression (all its grievances are historic, unlike some other groups I could name), so I guess they are just dicks.

[The_Squid]

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/3941269

Hope you're happy PQ.

So if a crazy guy rants to scientists on a bus, is that a sign of a failing Harper policy? Or is it a sign that crazy people ride on buses?

I don't take public policy cues from crazy people on buses, nor is it evidence of bad public policy. Even if it actually is bad public policy.

Edited September 18, 2013 by The_Squid

[Boges]

Just an anecdote of the climate in Quebec. Poll numbers would indicate there are many people who think and act like this man.