Students offered grants if they tweet pro-Israeli propaganda

[Rue]

Signals you are wrong about everyone having a price.

I know people -ordinary people fighting with cancer, disability, sexual molestation, rape, incest, mental illness, chronic pain, unemployment, people who have kicked their addicitons, people who in their own way and battle have chosen and will choose life precisely because it is priceless. I bare witness to these people. They taught me humility and grace.

You really a soldier or a young man trying to sound tough and full of bravado with that so called cynicism?

Its easy to call the world a bunch of whores. Too easy.

I know veterans who can not sleep. They never will. They had to do things under duress they would ordinarly have not done. They spend the rest of their lives battling demons. The demons come from not being able to forgive themselves for doing things they

will take to their death struggling with. Such veterans' pain has no price. What they choose to now suffer with is a testament to their willing to do things that would curse them to their deaths so others would not have to die or suffer their fate. these veterans are ordinary people who made decisions to put themselves in harm's way because they believed life is precious.

Pk wrote in he thinks he would kill people in the name of his family. Maybe he would under duress but with his free choice-I doubt it. I think he has mixed up people who have to do things unspeakable under duress with people who have free choice.

I learned from holocaust survivors, war veterans and survivors of all kinds of battles personal or from war torn countries-that none of us has a price-we are in essence a form that is priceless. Life is priceless. It is a miracle. If we were forced tod o unspeakable things it was because we felt life was so precious we saw no other choice. I say "we" with due respect to those who suffer so I would not. I say 'we" because I do not want them to feel alone and think they sold out.

I think yes Signals some people lose sight of the value of humans. I think of certain field generals removed from the field of battle who may have gotten that way. I think of Dieppes when I say that.

I also do not doubt corporate leaders who make dangerous products they know will kil people but do so anyways because they figure out their profit will outdo any wrongful death suits, may be that way. I do not doubt politicians, musicians, lawyers, people of all walks of life may choose to "sell out" for momentary short term gratification. Sure.

But don't be so quick to write off people as all being whores. Its too easy. You do that you go where the demons live and then it does become too easy to get in a head space of me first everyone else second and rationalize your own sell out.

I have been privileged to witness and learn from other peoples' pain and struggles, why life is priceless.

So I will not generalize and call all people capable of being bought. Its a generalization. Everyone is fallible in any given circumstance.

It does not make them whores-just humans.

In fact I have more respect for hookers then I do the self righteous sob's that pay them. One has free choice, the other I am not so sure of..

Edited August 19, 2013 by Rue

[guyser]

Signals you are wrong about everyone having a price.

Everyone has their price. Dont be silly.

Its easy to call the world a bunch of whores. Too easy.

No one ever said such a thing, but you did. Congrats.

I had a friend blow his head off because he could not live with what he did.

In other words, he had his price met. And you dont see that right?

Whats the price to pay for his pain to be abbated? His life....and he paid it.

Pk wrote in he thinks he would kill people in the name of his family. Maybe he would under duress but with his free choice-I doubt it. He has mixed up people who have to do things unspeakable under duress with people who have free choice.

Sure bandy about parameters all you want, use 10,000 words (as you are wont to do) to try and make a point, through in a few maybes for security and voila...nothing but contradiction.

No one gave rules about it being under duress or free choice. It was a simple...everyone has their price.

[Guest American Woman]

You have equated a soldier throwing himself on a bomb to protect fellow soldiers and a terrorist who blows himself up to kill people.

One dies to save lives, the other to kill as many as possible and you can't tell the difference.

You have then the audacity to refer to yourself as a soldier and question American Women's morality?

Weird, eh? And to say that I'm "spewing self righteous bullshit" when all I've done is point out that no one can speak for everyone else, is, to me, evidence of discomfort with one's position, as all of the moral judgment seems to be coming from his end.

Not everyone would do anything for a price - that's the bottom line; and that's all I've said.

[Rue]

Collateral damage = killing civilians = receive awards

Suicide bombs = killing civilians = receive awards

=

H Jones = illogical

[Rue]

I am going to respond one by one to your comments I place in quotation marks Guyser.

"Everyone has their price. Dont be silly."

The above is illogical and silly. You do not know everyone. To claim you do is not only illogical but absurb. The above

is an assumption. It is not based on fact just your preonceived notion everyone has a price. Its silly to even begin to

claim you know what other people believe let alone all people.

In response to my saying the poster who stated everyone else has a price-can be inferred to mean the world is full of whores you stated:

"No one ever said such a thing, but you did. Congrats."

What is the inference as to the sweeping generalization that the whole world has a price hmmm? Is it hard for you to see what it infers necessarily. What do you think a whore is? What do you think a prostitute is? A prostitute is someone who sells themself for a price. That is the anology the reader

made and you also uphold so don't suddenly try respond by playing sarcastic with semantics.

The sweeping generalization and assumption that we all have a price necessarily suggests we all sell out. That makes us all prostitutes. You repeat the

word "everyone" not me. You come on this board claiming to speak for all and suggest they will all compromise.

In response to my friend who committed suicide you stated:

"In other words, he had his price met. And you dont see that right?"

Now that was silly. He killed himself because of post traumatic stress syndrome. Soldiers who suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome

and suffer pain which might become so unbearable they just want to end it because of regrets from their flash backs have no price. Their lives

have no price. The lives they feel they took away as well as their lost life has no price and you don't get it. You are so blinded by these people's

suffering you write it off as them selling out. That is not just illogical but it shows you can't see past your own rigid preconceived stereotype what

others might be thinking or feeling that causes them to do things you think is selling out for a price. Stop assuming.

"Whats the price to pay for his pain to be abbated? His life....and he paid it."

No that was not the price. The price is not his life. You do not get it. There was no price. His life can not be measured as a "price". You deem his life to have a finite value. Price suggests you can put a monetary sum on it. You don't know what the value of his life meant to him, his family, those who loved him-you don't know what caused him to do what he did, when and why-you think you can simply define it as a rigid monetry value!? There was no price.

To this day there was no monetary value to his life or anyone else's. The life he had lived- and the life he might have lived-the good and bad he did in life, and the good and bad he may have done had he continued to live-his life and so many others were priceless. He died because he thought what he did

was unforgiveable precisely because he thought life was priceless and he could not live with himself. It is called a paradox and your brain can't flex out of its rigid everyone=price formula to get it.

You stated:

"Sure bandy about parameters all you want,"

Yes in your world you can't move out of rigid parameters-the moment one steps out of a simple black and white equation you call it bandying. Got it. Your brain can't handle the concept that between black and white are infinite shades of grey right?

You then state:

"use 10,000 words (as you are wont to do)"

Yes I know you want everything in neat, simple short sentences. Its quite the generation where you can't handle anything but a quick second sound bite.

I was brought up in an era where words breath our feelings they aren't used to repress them as you do. I am not afraid to use words to show emotion in debate. You want to stick to rigid cliches, be my guest.

Whether I shit a lot and you a little, it smells either way.

You stated:

"to try and make a point, through in a few maybes for security and voila...nothing but contradiction."

You have provided no contradictions. all you have done is trot out a 1 = 1 formula and claim anything other then that formula is a contradiction or bandies outside parameters. Right. Perhaps we shall discuss theory of relativity another time. Looks like you are still stuck on 1=1.

You then evidence how your brain can't get past 1=1 when you stated:

"No one gave rules about it being under duress or free choice. It was a simple...everyone has their price."

When someone makes the statement, everyone has a price, it is an axiom. It was stated as an absolute definition that can not be

challenged.

What is this crap about rules. I did not set down the rules. I did not come on this board and make the sweeping assumption that I know everyone on this

planet and what they think and will think and can make the absolute close minded assumption or stereotype they will sell out.

I did not set the rule. I came on this board to challenge it as a rigid stereotype and your comment above now tries to suggest I can't

question it because if I do you suggest I am giving rules. In fact if you read your accusation, you are saying I changed the rule.

I didn't change the rule. I pointed out the obvious. When one generalizes and tries to jam all motives for actions into one simplistic formula its

easy to show why its not going to be accurate and the fact your brain can't flex to understand we can not equate the actions of someone under duress

with someone who exercises free choice shows you do not understand human behaviour and why there is a difference.

Motives for behaviour contain variables. In law we state a person who;

1-does not have the capacity to understand his actions due to mental illness, temporary insanity,

altered state; or

2-does them under duress, i.e., was coerced into doing something he would otherwise not have done had he not been forced, i.e., by threat of death or harm;

3-is a minor;

is not treated in the same manner as others when determining whether they are capable of understanding their actions or rendering their decisions.

In psychology we state, persons suffering from certain conditions such as mental illness, severe depression, post traumatic stress syndrome, battered wife syndrome, sexual abuse, sexual assault, may not have the sufficient capacity to have clearly made a free choice.

In philosophy we say free choice=the ability to decide freely and without undue influence depends on whether we are free to make such decisions in the first place.

in sociology we define people's consciousness and ability to reason as being capable of being manipulated by insititutions, organizations, social networks, groups and the external environment.

Anthropology has also taught us that price as you call it is a cultural assumption and that in certain societies they do not define value by price at all.

In your world you can't fathom that. You assume the whole world defines value by material relativity which is the concept of price. Price is the valuing

of something in your equation as being "worth" something, i.e., humans are only motivated as you state if they can benefit themselves.

In your world, all decisions, all actions are motivated by self-benefit.

Now talk about silly.

You haven't a clue how animistic societies functioned and still function. You haven't a clue there were and still are societies that only define value by

what you are able to give others not keep.

You couldn't even begin to fathom the reasoning processed in Buddism or Taoism or Hinduism or mystic Judaism or ancient Christianity or passages in the Koran that state value does not come from what you hold onto or benefit yourself with but by the hope, joy and positive thoughts you can inspire/generate in others-value comes from doing good deeds for others and expecting nothing back and that this process is not measurable as a finite equation because it sets off an infinite process of sharing that continues to evolve in shape and implication as it cascades outword through other souls like a wave of energy.

You don' tget it. You live in a world where you think everything has a price because your brain panics if it has to think outside the box of materialistic

relativity, i.e., defining people as a product of what they want.

You are blind to the essence of the soul. You think all souls are anchored by the need to be given something. You sound like someone who claims to be an expert on all wines but have never tasted any. Stick to Budweiser.

You make me genuinely laugh. You are someone who looks at a reflection in the mirror and assumes that everyone on the planet looks just like you because you saw your reflection.

You speak for yourself. Your assumption people have a price is your assumption you project on others. You presume its true, because you believe its true. I mean after all, you saw it in the mirror.

What I can do is match each and every tale of someone selling out with someone who did not.

I contend there are as many selfless acts as selfish ones-its all what we choose to see and what is clear Gusyer is you choose

not to use your brain and flex, you choose instead to try melt down the entire motivation of all people to one simplistic formula.

Signal would have no arguement with me if he said he believes there appears to be propensity in humanity to sell out.

I do not doubt that. I know many that think life has a price.

However also know money whose decision to surive their struggles meant necessarily they would not allow some thing or person to impose

on them what the price of life was and these survivors learned no one can set a price on life or needs to-life's value constantly changes depending

on the context in which it is expressed and whether that context is negative (determined and closed in amount) or positive (open ended in value)

depends on the frame of reference of each of us.

There is no limit to what life can translate into. If you choose to believe otherwise good for you. My river flows endlessly-it doesn't stop.

[guyser]

I am going to respond one by one to your comments I place in quotation marks Guyser.

"Everyone has their price. Dont be silly."

The above is illogical and silly. You do not know everyone. To claim you do is not only illogical but absurb. The above

is an assumption. It is not based on fact just your preonceived notion everyone has a price. Its silly to even begin to

claim you know what other people believe let alone all people.

Another ten thousand words when a hundred will do.

Your 'friend'.....Whats the price to pay for his pain to be abbated? His life....and he paid it.

He wanted to be rid of his pain, real or imagined, so he had a price for his decision. His life.

Whether we know or not, everyday we pay the price, running a red light, the price might be death or a simple crash.

Speed? A fine, ergo pay the price.

Not be a good parent with the kids, pay the price .

Not save for retirement? Pay the price.

Consciously or not, we all have a price to pay.

[Guest American Woman]

Consciously or not, we all have a price to pay.

Which is quite different from "anyone will do anything if the price is right." Obviously not "everyone" will do "anything;" so Rue is right - you cannot speak for "everyone," as I've pointed out repeatedly. You can only speak for yourself and those who have told you that they would do anything for the right price.

[GostHacked]

Weird, eh? And to say that I'm "spewing self righteous bullshit" when all I've done is point out that no one can speak for everyone else, is, to me, evidence of discomfort with one's position, as all of the moral judgment seems to be coming from his end.

Not everyone would do anything for a price - that's the bottom line; and that's all I've said.

Somethings I won't do for any price. Other things, let's just say I am negotiable.

[Rue]

Guyser as American Women said, your are mixing up "price", as used in the concept of being able to put a set value on peoples' lives, and selling out a life for a personal benefit with the potential or real consequences for our individual actions once enacted.

What you now do is try redefine the concept of price to mean consequence for actions and for someone so concerned with me setting rules, you seem to have mid stream decided to change the original context in which price was used in a stereotype to say all humans will sell out for personal benefit.

Of course there are consequences. Each of us as individuals has a responsibility for the choices we make.

This brings us back to what I originally said and you still can not grasp.

The consequence of our actions are often not thought out before we act -in fact we humans have a propensity to act before we think of the consequences of our actions and that can come about because of duress, coercion, mental illness, false belief, altered senses, all kinds of causes other than being spiritually corupt and simply wanting to sell out.

The very point that soared over your head yet again is I am simply debating this notion that soldiers, let alone all of us are whores who will sell out.

Some of us might for many reasons and then some of us have not for many reasons.

To dismiss the history of humanity and its many stories that show the vast variation in how we have struggled to do the right and wrong thing and try reduce it to a ridiculously simplistic axiom that everyone is corupt is what American Woman and I debated and still debate.

I also want to clarify I am not taking the position of a saint. I am a whore. I judge no one but myself. All I am saying is I know good people who have done bad things and did them because it was their duty to. History has shown that under duress some of us freeze and panic and some of us act and do things we never thought we were capable of doing or may not ever be able to do under normal circumstances.

Soldiers who come back from war zones wrestle with this. Their ptsd comes from their minds struggling to cope months, years later with what they think the consequences of some of their actions were or how they behaved and keep second guessing.

There is no price for what they did. There is a consequence though and you are not in the position to understand what that consequence is let alone assume to know what it is. If you practice silence, you might just might in the silence of a veteran's tired eyes hear just a tiny bit of impact on them,

That is what I am saying. Look in the eyes of the people who survive to understand you can't put a price on what they feel or what they went or are going through-what you can do is witness a glimpse of their struggle-but to bare witness we have to put our own egoes to the side.

What I am saying to you is the consequences of what people are willing to do in the name of life shows they could not be compromised-they held to their values and for that I will admire them. There is just too much focus on the corupt and not enough on the simple every day heroes-ordinary people who

who called on their inner strength to prevail. I bare witness to them with humility and that is why I have taken the time to respond to you-it is the same reason I detest terrorists or those who claim to speak for soldiers or anyone else. We all speak for ourselves and I do not dare assume what the consequences are for wearing the boots of a soldier. I would be lucky to bare witness however to their testimony if and when they decided to share it. Until then I leave them with dignity and privacy and simply nod appreciation.

[-TSS-]

I am very critical of Israel but this is just rubbish and you know it!

[PIK]

Hudson I will give you credit, you constantly being proved wrong and yet you keep coming back.

[guyser]

Hudson I will give you credit, you constantly being proved wrong and yet you keep coming back.

You like the company huh?