cybercoma Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 TPP is in the news again, and I think it's essential to have a good discussion on this.Then you should probably post about it on another forum. Quote
Topaz Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Listening to the news on this, Harper could be in a pickle, so to speak. The US wants Canada to open up the dairy sector to them but if they agree to that, at least before an election here, many farmer's won't support them in the election and if they don't give the US what they want, its no deal. I guess is they will keep stalling until after the election then give the US what they want. The dairy farmer's have the same problem under the EU agreement. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Then you should probably post about it on another forum. I'm sure this forum will provide me both sides of the discussion better than any other I can think of. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
TimG Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) If the government wants to pass complex and sweeping economic change, then they have to set up a forum for a public to be created. Perhaps it's too much to expect all Canadians to understand the TPP but certainly a representative public could discuss the pros/cons if they only published the details.The FTA in 1988 was a big change. TPP is more of the same. The fact is Mexico and the US are already out competing Canada when it comes to manufacturing and this trend would accelerate if Canada says out of the TPP while the US and Mexico join. So Canada has to join if the deal goes ahead (joining at a later date would invariably result in a worse deal for Canada). It is also important to keep in mind that critics can always find excuses to complain about such deals because no one country can expect to get a deal without sacrificing something. The issue that should be discussed is the big picture of whether Canada can afford to be left out of such deals. Edited July 31, 2015 by TimG Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Ok - what do you say to some specific and very remarkable aspects that have been brought up: Lack of protection for CanCon, and I even saw a HuffPost saying the CBC would have to be for-profit ? Pharma patent extension ? Extended surveillance, jail time for downloading ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Lack of protection for CanCon, and I even saw a HuffPost saying the CBC would have to be for-profit ? Sign it now. I'd sign it just for that. The lack of protection for cancon would be great too. Quote
TimG Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Lack of protection for CanCon, and I even saw a HuffPost saying the CBC would have to be for-profit?Almost every country has a not for profit public broadcaster so I can't see how any deal will change this. Can-con is becoming increasingly irrelevant in a world of internet streaming. Canada should make sure that government programs to fund local productions are protected but I don't see this an an issue. That said, Canada is in a better position to protect culture industries if it finds common cause with other participants but its ability to do that is hindered by the dairy restrictions. If there is one complaint I have about the TPP is Canada will likely get a worse deal than it deserves because the interests of the rest of the country are being sacrificed to protect the profits of a small number of dairy farmers. Pharma patent extension ? Extended surveillance, jail time for downloading ? The patent system has more problems than simply the term of the patents and these problems are not going to be resolved whether the TPP goes ahead or not. Jail time for downloading sounds like fear mongering and Canada can use the recent court decisions to argue that it cannot commit to specific punishments for constitutional reasons. Edited July 31, 2015 by TimG Quote
Bryan Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Lack of protection for CanCon, and I even saw a HuffPost saying the CBC would have to be for-profit ? Yes!!! Oh, yes, please let that be true!!! Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Sign it now. I'd sign it just for that. The lack of protection for cancon would be great too. Yes, so you like that provision but it's being used as a red flag to scare people away from it. My question is how likely are such changes to happen ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Big Guy Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 If Canada would drop its protection of dairy products then those prices would drop by 50% to Canadians, consumers would be very happy, dairy farmers would be going broke, Conservatives would pay the price in votes in rural Canada. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Smallc Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 If Canada would drop its protection of dairy products then those prices would drop by 50% to Canadians, consumers would be very happy, dairy farmers would be going broke, Conservatives would pay the price in votes in rural Canada. I'm all in favour of getting rid of supply management, but studies show that it only reduces prices at the retail end, not overall. When new subsidies were included in the calculations, milk actually got more expensive in Australia. Quote
Smallc Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Yes!!! Oh, yes, please let that be true!!! It would be like Crhistmas in August. It would save taxpayers over a billion dollars a year to boot. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Almost every country has a not for profit public broadcaster so I can't see how any deal will change this. Can-con is becoming increasingly irrelevant in a world of internet streaming. Canada should make sure that government programs to fund local productions are protected but I don't see this an an issue. That said, Canada is in a better position to protect culture industries if it finds common cause with other participants but its ability to do that is hindered by the dairy restrictions. If there is one complaint I have about the TPP is Canada will likely get a worse deal than it deserves because the interests of the rest of the country are being sacrificed to protect the profits of a small number of dairy farmers. Great insight. Thank you. The patent system has more problems than simply the term of the patents and these problems are not going to be resolved whether the TPP goes ahead or not. Jail time for downloading sounds like fear mongering and Canada can use the recent court decisions to argue that it cannot commit to specific punishments for constitutional reasons. Doesn't the agreement supplant national laws though ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
TimG Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 Doesn't the agreement supplant national laws though ?Trade agreements are normal laws and are subject to all of the same constitutional restrictions. Quote
blueblood Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 I'm all in favour of getting rid of supply management, but studies show that it only reduces prices at the retail end, not overall. When new subsidies were included in the calculations, milk actually got more expensive in Australia. I think supply management would go if the usa, japan, and others got their mammoth trade distorting subsidies for agriculture chopped. This deal will get signed and harper can go to the dairy industry and say ive tried. If the deal gets signed and he gets to keep supply management, thats a steal. There has already been a concession made in the ceta agreement over aupply managemenr. Ditto for the cbc potentially getting axed. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Michael Hardner Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 I'm enjoying the information I'm getting on here, thank you. No more pot shots please. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
PIK Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I for one am sick of being held hostage by 12000 rich dairy farmers. I am also tired of paying way to much for milk and curds. The Canadian dairy farm will not go broke, because with lower prices we can buy more of their product. Edited July 31, 2015 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Smallc Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 I for one am sick of being held hostage by 12000 rich dairy farmers. I am also tired of paying way to much for milk and curds. The Canadian dairy farm will not go broke, because with lower prices we can buy more of their product. According to research studies, when subsidies are taken into account, we pay the same as any other first world country. There's also the reality of having to pay out the dairy farmers. It would be in the billions if not the tens of billions. Quote
blueblood Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 According to research studies, when subsidies are taken into account, we pay the same as any other first world country. There's also the reality of having to pay out the dairy farmers. It would be in the billions if not the tens of billions. That and its an ace up our sleeve to play to get countries (which subsidize their producers to the effect of dumping) to cave on their stuff Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Argus Posted July 31, 2015 Report Posted July 31, 2015 I for one am sick of being held hostage by 12000 rich dairy farmers. Most of them in Quebec... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
waldo Posted August 1, 2015 Report Posted August 1, 2015 no agreement on auto-trade, dairy, drugs, etc.; sorry Harper Conservatives, no pre-election announcement for you! Trans-Pacific Partnership talks hit snag, no deal reached Quote
WIP Posted August 1, 2015 Report Posted August 1, 2015 no agreement on auto-trade, dairy, drugs, etc.; sorry Harper Conservatives, no pre-election announcement for you! Trans-Pacific Partnership talks hit snag, no deal reached IF we can believe this is a real negotiating process between national leaders...rather than what I suspect this and all other past trading regimes have been - something scripted like a WWE drama, to cover for the fact that the world's leading oligarchs want to increase the power of the transnational money class, and the deal will get to its intended goals regardless of what they are telling us now! Supposedly, the Fast-track "trade-promotin authority" for Pres Obama was bogged down in Congress a month ago....and somehow they just managed to find enough votes to get it passed! Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted August 1, 2015 Report Posted August 1, 2015 I may as well add this story in here that came out today on the TPP: TPP deal would force CBC, Canada Post to work for profit only – leak A letter leaked by WikiLeaks reveals that CBC, Canada Post and other Crown corporations could be forced to work solely for profit under the US-led Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement (TPP) currently being negotiated in Maui, Hawaii. TPP could have the power to force state-owned enterprises such as news organizations and postal services to abandon their public service mandate and embrace a profit-only approach, says the leaked confidential letter titled ‘State-Owned Enterprises (SOEs) Issues for Ministerial Guidance’. The document was put together for a TPP Ministerial Meeting held in Singapore in December 2013. It outlines “a wide-ranging privatization and globalization strategy,” according to WikiLeaks. “Even an SOE that exists to fulfill a public function neglected by the market or which is a natural monopoly would nevertheless be forced to act ‘on the basis of commercial considerations,’” WikiLeaks said in a statement that introduces the document. “Foreign companies would be given standing to sue SOEs in domestic courts for perceived departures from the strictures of the TPP, and countries could even be sued by other TPP countries, or by private companies from those countries.” This is part of the reason why calling them trade deals is misleading. These deals are going way beyond what we consider trading of goods and services to demanding that nations put everything up for sale to the highest bidder! May the richest oligarch win and take over the whole goddamned world! That's the ultimate end game of capitalism. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Big Guy Posted August 2, 2015 Report Posted August 2, 2015 If the writ is dropped this weekend, how is that going to effect the negotiations? At that point the government no longer exists. The next government may not share the same philosophy and position and would not be obligated to follow the commitments of the previous government. I assume that all negotiations would start from 0 - the beginning again. That being the case - is Canadian involvement in the TTP dead? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
blueblood Posted August 2, 2015 Report Posted August 2, 2015 If the writ is dropped this weekend, how is that going to effect the negotiations? At that point the government no longer exists. The next government may not share the same philosophy and position and would not be obligated to follow the commitments of the previous government. I assume that all negotiations would start from 0 - the beginning again. That being the case - is Canadian involvement in the TTP dead? It was the aussies that walked away, had an issue with americans sugar industry. The tpp will continue to slog through. it was only four days. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
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