Should Marijuana Be Legal?

[PIK]

I like how Harper is also pandering for votes from the centre and left in his own way. It's not because it's a crime to do drugs or it's wrong that he hasn't smoked pot....it's because he has asthma. I wonder what the social conservatives in his base think of that.

Nothing ,what are they going to do vote for trudeau.

[sharkman]

So to summarize the responses, legalization is good because it reduces access(somehow it affects the black marketer dealers in the schools) and it gives the government a big new revenue source. The studies are all inconclusive so we can ignore them. Anything else?

[sharkman]

A teen will get what a teen wants, no doubt.

But legalization does touch the issue. If legalized (presumably) then access is harder insofar as the kid has to ask someone else to pick it up or buy it.

Generally it is thought that suppliers will dry up since the trade is not lucrative, ergo the kids supplier is gone now too.

I know bootleggers for beer exist up north and the only buyers are the lazy ones who cant get to the store. So I am conceed the point that there will be a street level avialability for pot but not anywhere near what exists.

Well if Canada legalizes it, black marketers are still going to grow it and sell it. They will market it to the schools as they do now, how does that change? And the US market will not shrink any time soon even though the odd state has legalized. What about Mexico? And harder drugs? The drug trade will adapt and teens will have pot, if a little cheaper to undercut the taxed product.

[BubberMiley]

Anything else?

You forgot that it would prevent people from going to jail for minding their own business, and it would save civic governments countless dollars in police time spent going after people who are minding their own business.

[guyser]

So to summarize the responses, legalization is good because it reduces access(somehow it affects the black marketer dealers in the schools) and it gives the government a big new revenue source. The studies are all inconclusive so we can ignore them. Anything else?

Not quite

As with prohibition we will experience...

1) drop in crime

2) increase in revenue

3) have more monies available for mental health and addiction

4) reduce policing costs

5) reducing jail/prison costs

6) remove social stigma's

7) reduce social costs

8) increase tax revenue

...not bad really.

[Black Dog]

So to summarize the responses, legalization is good because it reduces access(somehow it affects the black marketer dealers in the schools) and it gives the government a big new revenue source.

Legalization won't stop some creeper who has six plants in his basement from selling weed at the 7-11. But the big time suppliers, are they gonna dick around with selling eighths and quarters to pimply teens when they could make like the Bronfmanns and tap into a billion dollar market? Come on.

The studies are all inconclusive so we can ignore them. Anything else?

I think you need to re-read the responses again.

Well if Canada legalizes it, black marketers are still going to grow it and sell it. They will market it to the schools as they do now, how does that change? And the US market will not shrink any time soon even though the odd state has legalized. What about Mexico? And harder drugs? The drug trade will adapt and teens will have pot, if a little cheaper to undercut the taxed product.

Like we have so many bootleggers in operation today?

[BubberMiley]

Well if Canada legalizes it, black marketers are still going to grow it and sell it. They will market it to the schools as they do now, how does that change?

There would still be black-market sales to children, but the whole black-market infrastructure for weed distribution would be decimated without sales to adults. This would make black-market weed distribution rarer and therefore more difficult.

[guyser]

Well if Canada legalizes it, black marketers are still going to grow it and sell it.

No one thinks thaty nor should they. There is no profitable market once it is legal. The price in all liklihood will drop rendering the stash those guys have as moot.

They will market it to the schools as they do now, how does that change?

Profit, and once thats gone w legalizing it , then they disappear too.

And the US market will not shrink any time soon even though the odd state has legalized. What about Mexico? And harder drugs? The drug trade will adapt and teens will have pot, if a little cheaper to undercut the taxed product.

What about Mexico? they have the most to gain with legalization since there will be no profit margin worth the effort to grow and sell the stuff. Hell, 50,000 murders in the last few years is one hell of a number and they can look forward to that stopping.(of course harder drugs will continue the problem but much less in numbers dead)

It cant really be undercut in price because the price reflects the risk. It probably costs less than $10 an ounce to make, the rest is the risk of getting caught, so in essence the $300 an ounce it goes for is $10 of product and $290 of risk.

[Black Dog]

Did someone say Mexico?

Push for legalization underway in Mexico

[sharkman]

Not quite

As with prohibition we will experience...

1) drop in crime

2) increase in revenue

3) have more monies available for mental health and addiction

4) reduce policing costs

5) reducing jail/prison costs

6) remove social stigma's

7) reduce social costs

8) increase tax revenue

...not bad really.

1) Crime will go up as gangs shoot it up over market share. More innocents will die.

2) It's not that cut and dried. How it cost 2 billion for the gun registry, and I submit more smoke pot than own guns. That equals a bigger government arm and more costs. And you can bet your tax dollars the grow op owners will cut prices to beat the legal price. How many taxes raised then?

3,4,5) Not so with the above and the same policing/jailing costs for those gang wars. It's hard to predict anything until there is data to work with.

6) A flip of the pen legalizing pot will not do this.

7)Again, no because of the above.

8) Highly debatable due to the above.

I don't like to get into these cans of worms because both sides can go on and on for literally months. It's useless to bother with that. You know I am wrong, and I know that you are wrong, we will never convince each other of anything. End of story. I hope it never happens, a ticketable offence I can live with, there's your revenue stream.

Edited August 30, 2013 by sharkman

[BubberMiley]

1) Crime will go up as gangs shoot it up over market share. More innocents will die.

What a desperate argument.

[WontonTiger]

Well if Canada legalizes it, black marketers are still going to grow it and sell it. They will market it to the schools as they do now, how does that change? And the US market will not shrink any time soon even though the odd state has legalized. What about Mexico? And harder drugs? The drug trade will adapt and teens will have pot, if a little cheaper to undercut the taxed product.

Why is it that we don't see booze peddlers outside of highschools? Your strawman here is that you can't seem to recognize that legalization would mean REDUCED HARM. It isn't a perfect solution, but neither is our current method of action. How can we make strides towards the right way, if we're not even willing to bend in order to alleviate the major issues?

Eliminating a major issue, but creating 4-5 smaller ones, is still a step in the right direction, and it's better than jailing Canadian citizens for enjoying their own choices, especially when there are worse choices available (alcohol, pharma).

[sharkman]

There would still be black-market sales to children, but the whole black-market infrastructure for weed distribution would be decimated without sales to adults. This would make black-market weed distribution rarer and therefore more difficult.

Look, these are hardened criminals who steal, kill, and do whatever they want to keep the money flowing. You are suggesting they will suddenly get groovy with the idea of becoming a legitimate business that collects taxes and submits money to the government and abides by the reams of work safe laws, fire regulation laws, don't shoot up your competitor laws and the like.

Who is going to grow this legal weed other than those who grow it now? They have the infastructure, the captial, the employees, the distribution channels, the connections, etc. They are not going to dry up and blow away. They are going to cut their prices and get gun happy.

[Black Dog]

1) Crime will go up as gangs shoot it up over market share. More innocents will die.

That makes no sense. Like. At all. Big growers and suppliers will simply go legit.

2) It's not that cut and dried. How it cost 2 billion for the gun registry, and I submit more smoke pot than own guns. That equals a bigger government arm and more costs. And you can bet your tax dollars the grow op owners will cut prices to beat the legal price. How many taxes raised then?

Sell it through the liquor stores, marginal increase in costs.

And why would grow op owners cut prices? For crying out loud, they want to make money.

3,4,5) Not so with the above and the same policing/jailing costs for those gang wars. It's hard to predict anything until there is data to work with.

Except we have a pretty good analogue for this in alcohol prohibition.

6) A flip of the pen legalizing pot will not do this.

Don't need it to. Canadians have already voted with their dollars and they love their weed.

[WontonTiger]

1) Crime will go up as gangs shoot it up over market share. More innocents will die.

2) It's not that cut and dried. How it cost 2 billion for the gun registry, and I submit more smoke pot than own guns. That equals a bigger government arm and more costs. And you can bet your tax dollars the grow op owners will cut prices to beat the legal price. How many taxes raised then?

3,4,5) Not so with the above and the same policing/jailing costs for those gang wars. It's hard to predict anything until there is data to work with.

6) A flip of the pen legalizing pot will not do this.

7)Again, no because of the above.

8) Highly debatable due to the above.

I don't like to get into these cans of worms because both sides can go on and on for literally months. It's useless to bother with that. You know I am wrong, and I know that you are wrong, we will never convince each other of anything. End of story. I hope it never happens, a ticketable offence I can live with, there's your revenue stream.

Seriously ridiculous! Do you actually ascribe to the belief that legalizing a product will increase the criminality behind it's production? That's a pretty absurd train of logic, especially since you omitted any logic from your statement.

What typically happens to market share within any industry where the government starts an enterprise? Give me one example of an industry or sector where government involvement actually increased the illegal sale within that same market/industry. Even finding one example would be difficult...

Does the LCBO lose money because it employs government workers? The answer is no, because it turns a hefty profit. It would be an almost identical model for marijuana. Government has it's issues, however they can still make money off of a sure thing (like alcohol, cigarettes).

I won't even address your other points, because they show such a lack of foresight and logic, that they don't deserve answers. I can just say "no" or "no it won't" too, but that doesn't forward my arguement.

[guyser]

1) Crime will go up as gangs shoot it up over market share. More innocents will die.

2) It's not that cut and dried. How it cost 2 billion for the gun registry, and I submit more smoke pot than own guns. That equals a bigger government arm and more costs. And you can bet your tax dollars the grow op owners will cut prices to beat the legal price. How many taxes raised then?

3,4,5) Not so with the above and the same policing/jailing costs for those gang wars. It's hard to predict anything until there is data to work with.

6) A flip of the pen legalizing pot will not do this.

7)Again, no because of the above.

8) Highly debatable due to the above.

1)Gangs wont shoot it up, where is the profit in them gewtting rid of the next gang? For what? An extra $10 profit or some such?

Where did the gangs go when prohibition was repealed? They disbanded for the most part

Crime has to drop since much of the crime around drugs is stealing and petty theft and burglary in order to get the cash to pay for high priced pot.

2) The revenue can only increase considering it is at $0 now.

3)4) 5)...ah come one Sharkman, you have not considered the numbers in jail on a simple pot charge, the gangs are there due to the $$$ , not the drugs so if the money aspect dries up, so do they There is data to deal with it, see Portugal. Immense data to boot.

7)Social costs should drop since many single income families lose that person to pot charges and leaves the other holding the bag....and no income thus needing assistance.

I don't like to get into these cans of worms because both sides can go on and on for literally months. It's useless to bother with that. You know I am wrong, and I know that you are wrong, we will never convince each other of anything. End of story. I hope it never happens, a ticketable offence I can live with, there's your revenue stream.

You may think I am wrong, but the data that Portugal has , the improvement in life, the decrease in use and all other data proves that legalization is the way to go and shows that......sorry to say but it proves your assertions incorrect. Edited August 30, 2013 by Guyser2

[WontonTiger]

Look, these are hardened criminals who steal, kill, and do whatever they want to keep the money flowing. You are suggesting they will suddenly get groovy with the idea of becoming a legitimate business that collects taxes and submits money to the government and abides by the reams of work safe laws, fire regulation laws, don't shoot up your competitor laws and the like.

Who is going to grow this legal weed other than those who grow it now? They have the infastructure, the captial, the employees, the distribution channels, the connections, etc. They are not going to dry up and blow away. They are going to cut their prices and get gun happy.

They'll just look for the next illegal good that should be legal, due to it's popular demand. They will then try to make money off of that. Or they might try to get into the legitimate side of things, since they have so much practical experience with marijuana.

Why is this so hard to fathom?

[Black Dog]

Look, these are hardened criminals who steal, kill, and do whatever they want to keep the money flowing. You are suggesting they will suddenly get groovy with the idea of becoming a legitimate business that collects taxes and submits money to the government and abides by the reams of work safe laws, fire regulation laws, don't shoot up your competitor laws and the like.

That's exactly what they will do. Why wouldn't they? Why would any capitalist cut prices and increase costs to hang on to an obsolete (and extremely costly) production, sales and distribution model?

Who is going to grow this legal weed other than those who grow it now? They have the infastructure, the captial, the employees, the distribution channels, the connections, etc. They are not going to dry up and blow away.

You should read this.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Black Dog

[sharkman]

What people are in jail for a simple pot charge!? Simply not true. Judges don't put people in prison for that, I am at a loss how you can think that.

Gosh, it's no use.

[Black Dog]

What people are in jail for a simple pot charge!? Simply not true. Judges don't put people in prison for that, I am at a loss how you can think that.

Gosh, it's no use.

I'm genuinely curious as to why you think the current producers and sellers of weed will continue to work under the radar when they would have the chance to peddle their wares openly. And who would buy from these guys when you can just buy it openly?

[guyser]

What people are in jail for a simple pot charge!? Simply not true. Judges don't put people in prison for that, I am at a loss how you can think that.

Gosh, it's no use.

Omnibus crime bill, 6 plants, 6 months, -minimum sentence .

Prison/jail, take your pick.

But before we get that far lets look at.....policing costs to process, jail cost to house,court house to process, court guards to shuffle, judges costs to adjudicate.

TO say gosh its no use is condesending and flies in the face of facts and data that suggests all that you believe to be for the most part wrong. Why not look at portugal , do research and come back to convince us? It is a tall order .

[BubberMiley]

What people are in jail for a simple pot charge!? Simply not true. Judges don't put people in prison for that, I am at a loss how you can think that.

Gosh, it's no use.

Within the federal system, the drug offender population (i.e., those sentenced under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act) comprises about one-quarter of the total offender population under federal jurisdiction (federal jurisdiction refers to those incarcerated and those on conditional release).

http://www.ccsa.ca/Eng/Topics/Populations/Offenders/Pages/OffendersOverview.aspx

So if (you think) they aren't put in prison and you don't think they should be put in prison, why are you opposed to changing the law so they can't be put in prison?

[sharkman]

Omnibus crime bill, 6 plants, 6 months, -minimum sentence .

Prison/jail, take your pick.

But before we get that far lets look at.....policing costs to process, jail cost to house,court house to process, court guards to shuffle, judges costs to adjudicate.

TO say gosh its no use is condesending and flies in the face of facts and data that suggests all that you believe to be for the most part wrong. Why not look at portugal , do research and come back to convince us? It is a tall order .

Then why did you say "simple possession"? Growing several plants is not walking down the street with a joint in your pocket. People don't go to prison for that, that's what i meant. Now you are going to say 6 plants. What's so bad with 6 plants. I'll say fine, 10 plants. Let's say they legalize 10 plants. Then someone just like you will complain that 10 is too low, and on and on and on it goes. Really. Smoke what the hell you want, smoke whatever, sex it up with some coke on your birthdays people, I really don't care. It's too easy to get it in Canada, and it always will be because of the supply and demand system, don't kid yourself.

Edited August 30, 2013 by sharkman

[guyser]

Then why did you say "simple possession"? Growing several plants is not walking down the street with a joint in your pocket. People don't go to prison for that, that's what i meant. Now you are going to say 6 plants. What's so bad with 6 plants. I'll say fine, 10 plants. Let's say they legalize 10 plants. Then someone just like you will complain that 10 is too low, and on and on and on it goes. Really. Smoke what the hell you want, smoke whatever, sex it up with some coke on your birthdays people, I really don't care. It's too easy to get it in Canada, and it always will be because of the supply and demand system, don't kid yourself.

Six plants could be in the early growth stage with no buds on them although they would be 6 plants of MJ and thus a chargeable offence.

If its too easy lets make it harder, legalize it , restrict the stores (a la LCBO) reduce the costs everywhere and voila !

[PIK]

Why is it that we don't see booze peddlers outside of highschools? Your strawman here is that you can't seem to recognize that legalization would mean REDUCED HARM. It isn't a perfect solution, but neither is our current method of action. How can we make strides towards the right way, if we're not even willing to bend in order to alleviate the major issues?

Eliminating a major issue, but creating 4-5 smaller ones, is still a step in the right direction, and it's better than jailing Canadian citizens for enjoying their own choices, especially when there are worse choices available (alcohol, pharma).

Pretty hard to hide booze outside of a school, when drugs fit so neatly into pockets. Nice try.