Ontario Transit Debate

[guyser]

Guyser, More people commute OUT of Toronto now to work in other areas. Please see my Link.. Toronto is the GTA's "Bedroom community"..

If it said that you may have a point.

I read it. Nowhere does it suggest what you state.

No numbers as per commuters, not to mention it states 'in danger of becoming a bdrm community"

Also, 2009 with data preceeding that date.

It does suggest that a problem arising is the commuters coming into TO, maybe there are some brains afterall.

[Boges]

Just because the 401 is packed doesn't mean they're all going to Toronto. Much of the 401's traffic are trucks just going from one end of the province to another.

The QEW/Gardiner is probably busiest at the 403/Ford plant interchange everyday. LRTs to Scarborough aren't going to fix that. GO already services commuters on the Lakeshore line to the point that parking at the stations are very difficult.

A lot of the Big Move improvements aren't dealing with people moving from one community to another, but helping people who already use transit. The Highway 10 LRT in Mississauga/Brampton will serve low income communities in those cities. The Yonge St. relief line will help improve transit because Toronto is whoring it's property to developers to build cheap condos as much as surburbs have been doing it to developers to build subdivisions.

And if you think a Metropass is expensive see how much it is to get a Monthly pass to use GO from places like Milton, Oakville, Burlington or Hamilton. To many people, using transit just isn't worth it.

[Black Dog]

A lot of the Big Move improvements aren't dealing with people moving from one community to another, but helping people who already use transit.

So?

And if you think a Metropass is expensive see how much it is to get a Monthly pass to use GO from places like Milton, Oakville, Burlington or Hamilton. To many people, using transit just isn't worth it.

The only reason people use GO is to get to the city where, chances are, they will then have to connect with the TTC.

[Boges]

What is your point?

I wonder too, the extent to which the economic growth of the 905 is being subsidized by tax dollars from people in the 416.

Do you have an evidence it is?

One way you can argue that the 416 is subsidizing the 905 is that people who work in the 416 buy property and spend their money in the 905. So Toronto money is leaving because people would prefer to live where more than 1,500 sq ft doesn't cost more than million dollars.

But that's changing, a lot of the congestion are people driving through Toronto or from one part of the 905 to another.

[Boges]

The only reason people use GO is to get to the city where, chances are, they will then have to connect with the TTC.

Presto FTW. But that's another reason why commuting using Transit is very difficult. Unless you live or work near a station of somekind, you would have to utilize 3 different modes of transit. That's why many people don't use it.

[Black Dog]

Do you have an evidence it is?

One way you can argue that the 416 is subsidizing the 905 is that people who work in the 416 buy property and spend their money in the 905. So Toronto money is leaving because people would prefer to live where more than 1,500 sq ft doesn't cost more than million dollars.

But that's changing, a lot of the congestion are people driving through Toronto or from one part of the 905 to another.

A better argument for tolls I haven't heard.

[guyser]

Do you have an evidence it is?

Yes...I look at the communities and know they couldnt afford all that splendour without Prov Govt assistance. Not to mention the 16Billion we send in taxes only returns 4Billion.

One way you can argue that the 416 is subsidizing the 905 is that people who work in the 416 buy property and spend their money in the 905. So Toronto money is leaving because people would prefer to live where more than 1,500 sq ft doesn't cost more than million dollars.

But that's changing, a lot of the congestion are people driving through Toronto or from one part of the 905 to another.

And if true, then all those 'driving through' will do so faster when the Metrolinx et al are up and running.

We all float higher when the water rises....or something like that

[Boges]

A better argument for tolls I haven't heard.

I thought about the nightmare tolling the 401 through Toronto would be. It's 16 lanes, 4 different highways. Stopping people to through a twoonie into a basket would make traffic even worse.

There's already a Toll Road to get through Toronto, if people were willing to pay, they'd use the 407 already.

Also the 401 is Provincial highway, it's busy other places too. Why not put a toll in York, Halton or Peel?

Now if you want to Toll the Gardiner, Go Nuts! Lots of large cities have tolls to get in, I'm shocked Toronto doesn't. It's $12 to get onto the Island of Manhattan.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[GostHacked]

Not enough , and if my observation is worth anything (take 404/401 everyday) those that do slow the rest of us down. Time and again, cut to the HOV lane and slow down.

Tolls should be a no go anywhere in Ontario. Shouldnt fly no way no how. Find the money somewhere but tolls should be a no go. The 407 tolls are too much, ergo why its empty .

I can get behind no toll roads. The public has already paid for these roads, and our taxes pay for the maintenance and upgrades. But still taxpayers are being fleeced for more money.

[Fletch 27]

the "905" is what provides employment for hundreds of thousands of "Torontonians". We, the "905", are creating employment for a crumbling Toronto and Toronto is now asking the "905" to pay for inexpensive transit INTO the 905??? Toronto should be taxed as such, and I don't care what model big-brother Metrolinx or Whynn select in paying for the transit "solutions" (and bribing of votes) but DONT cry and demand that the 905 PAY for us providing YOU Torontonians jobs and employment.

Time Toronto takes care of its OWN fiasco... Again... Tax us NOW???

What is your point?

I wonder too, the extent to which the economic growth of the 905 is being subsidized by tax dollars from people in the 416.

[guyser]

the "905" is what provides employment for hundreds of thousands of "Torontonians". We, the "905", are creating employment for a crumbling Toronto and Toronto is now asking the "905" to pay for inexpensive transit INTO the 905??? Toronto should be taxed as such, and I don't care what model big-brother Metrolinx or Whynn select in paying for the transit "solutions" (and bribing of votes) but DONT cry and demand that the 905 PAY for us providing YOU Torontonians jobs and employment.

Time Toronto takes care of its OWN fiasco... Again... Tax us NOW???

...double shot!

Toronto paid for likely more than half of any of what the 905 has.

Ya really think you can afford those hospitals? The highways? The resource centres?

er.....no. You cant.

[The_Squid]

Stopping people to through a twoonie into a basket would make traffic even worse.

Toll booths are ancient technology that are going the way of the dinosaur.

Scan a licence plate, send the bill in the mail. No pay, no driver's licence or insurance when you go to renew.

[Boges]

Toronto is experiencing a population boom right now because condos are going up everywhere. They definitely need the transit because you don't really need a car down there. But I think these improvements should be funded largely by the Toronto taxpayer through property taxes or an entrance toll.

Wynne wants something different though. But if she increases the gas tax for the entire province, I don't see how she'll be electable outside of Toronto.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[Boges]

...double shot!

Toronto paid for likely more than half of any of what the 905 has.

Ya really think you can afford those hospitals? The highways? The resource centres?

er.....no. You cant.

I still would like to see some evidence that the Toronto taxpayer is paying for hospitals in Mississauga and Hamilton.

[Fletch 27]

Oh, yes.. Lets forget about municipal taxes and responsibilities... Well, considering that Mississauga and Milton are ALL in surplus,, It really is funny that Toronto is begging for taxes now to fund daily excursions OUT of Toronto.. Time for Toronto to put on the big-boy boots and pay their own way.

...double shot!

Toronto paid for likely more than half of any of what the 905 has.

Ya really think you can afford those hospitals? The highways? The resource centres?

er.....no. You cant.

[Black Dog]

I thought about the nightmare tolling the 401 through Toronto would be. It's 16 lanes, 4 different highways. Stopping people to through a twoonie into a basket would make traffic even worse.

There's electronic tolling now. Don't even have to slow down.

There's already a Toll Road to get through Toronto, if people were willing to pay, they'd use the 407 already.

They don't pay because they have options.

Also the 401 is Provincial highway, it's busy other places too. Why not put a toll in York, Halton or Peel?

Why not indeed.

Now if you want to Toll the Gardiner, Go Nuts! Lots of large cities have tolls to get in, I'm shocked Toronto doesn't. It's $12 to get onto the Island of Manhattan.

Toll them all I say.

Toronto is experiencing a population boom right now because condos are going up everywhere. They definitely need the transit because you don't really need a car down there. But I think these improvements should be funded largely by the Toronto taxpayer through property taxes or an entrance toll.

Wynne wants something different though.

So we're back to all local improvements being funded 100% locally? Again, I'm on board, provided I can withhold whatever portion of my provincial taxes are spent outside my urban boundaries too.

[Black Dog]

Oh, yes.. Lets forget about municipal taxes and responsibilities... Well, considering that Mississauga and Milton are ALL in surplus,, It really is funny that Toronto is begging for taxes now to fund daily excursions OUT of Toronto.. Time for Toronto to put on the big-boy boots and pay their own way.

Yet they are all are right there with their hands out for provincial dough. If they are so fiscaly sound, they can surely pull together the billions they are asking Metrolinx to pony up for projects like the LRT from Port Credit to Brampton.

[guyser]

I still would like to see some evidence that the Toronto taxpayer is paying for hospitals in Mississauga and Hamilton.

Maybe not those two spots, but MArkham certainly couldnt have afforded the new hospital put up in late 80's.

RVH couldnt have been paid for by Barrie.

The point being, you know instinctively that the huge pop of TO sends far more money to the Fed/Prov govt than they have rec'd.

So therefore, it should be evidence enough that monies from TO helped pay.

[Boges]

Toll them all I say.

I'm not surprised you fully support tolls everywhere. I reckon you don't drive. That type of tolling will make the Ontario Liberals unelectable though. Something that'd make me very happy.

The NDP doesn't even support the revenue tools because the financial burden will come down squarely on the middle class. Horvath just bullied the government to agree to lower auto insurance rate. How hypocritical would it be to force the government to lower auto insurance but make those same drivers pay through the teeth in gas taxes and tolls?

So we're back to all local improvements being funded 100% locally? Again, I'm on board, provided I can withhold whatever portion of my provincial taxes are spent outside my urban boundaries too.

The province can fund roads that are cross regional like the 401 and use provincial tools to support it. When roads in my region are widened I expect the region is paying for it.

But we're talking about a specific plan called the Big Move, where a good majority of the plans assist Toronto but where regressive taxes province wide potentially could be used to pay for them.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

I'm not surprised you fully support tolls everywhere. I reckon you don't drive.

It's ironic you support a "user pay" model....except for drivers.

That type of tolling will make the Ontario Liberals unelectable though. Something that'd make me very happy.

The NDP doesn't even support the revenue tools because the financial burden will come down squarely on the middle class. Horvath just bullied the government to agree to lower auto insurance rate. How hypocritical would it be to force the government to lower auto insurance but make those same drivers pay through the teeth in gas taxes and tolls?

The NDP lost my vote on this issue, actually.

The province can fund roads that are cross regional like the 401 and use provincial tools to support it. When roads in my region are widened I expect the region is paying for it.

These are usually cost shares.

But we're talking about a specific plan called the Big Move, where a good majority of the plans assist Toronto but where regressive taxes province wide potentially could be used to pay for them.

So basically your fine with your taxes funding things you don't benefit from provided you don't know where they are going.

Which is oddly out of step with most people's views. Polls show people are more inclined to support tax hikes when they know where the money is being spent.

[Boges]

It's ironic you support a "user pay" model....except for drivers.

A Gas tax to pay for Toronto Rail lines isn't exactly "user pay."

So basically your fine with your taxes funding things you don't benefit from provided you don't know where they are going.

Which is oddly out of step with most people's views. Polls show people are more inclined to support tax hikes when they know where the money is being spent.

Well if you can trust this government to spend this money properly.

The problem I have with the Big Move is that it's way to sweeping. I don't mind the Province helping to pay for a cross-town LRT or a rail-link to Pearson, but adding a new Gas Tax for the entire province to pay for it is where I have a problem. If the Province is such a financial mess that it can't budget for new projects as needed with the help of the municipal government then we truly do need a new government in charge of Ontario.

But then again we don't really know which tools are going to be used. Again I don't mind some of them, but there are some I'm completely opposed to.

Remember some of them include increased fares and extra development charges for places that stand to benefit.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

A Gas tax to pay for Toronto Rail lines isn't exactly "user pay."

Point is, and it's one we've discussed elsewhere I'm sure, driver's don't necessarily pay their way as it is. As a non-driver, why the hell should I subsidize roads in Halton or Guelph?

Well if you can trust this government to spend this money properly.

If it's dedicated, you know where it's supposed to go and thus it's far easier to hold them to account.

The problem I have with the Big Move is that it's way to sweeping. I don't mind the Province helping to pay for a cross-town LRT or a rail-link to Pearson, but adding a new Gas Tax for the entire province to pay for it is where I have a problem. If the Province is such a financial mess that it can't budget for new projects as needed with the help of the municipal government then we truly do need a new government in charge of Ontario.

I think it's less a matter of the province being a financial mess as it is we are feeling the pinch from decades of inaction in this area. Now the hole is so deep even Mike Harris can't fill it in.

But then again we don't really know which tools are going to be used. Again I don't mind some of them, but there are some I'm completely opposed to.

Remember some of them include increased fares and extra development charges for places that stand to benefit.

FWIW, I'm fine with there being a range of tools used. And I'm also fine with individual municipalities putting some skin in the game. Point is a lot of this stuff needed to be built ten, 15, 20 years ago. What's the cost of doing nothing going to be 10, 15, 20 years from now?

[GostHacked]

Toll booths are ancient technology that are going the way of the dinosaur.

Scan a licence plate, send the bill in the mail. No pay, no driver's licence or insurance when you go to renew.

Sounds like extortion. Pay more for something you already paid for.

[The_Squid]

Sounds like extortion. Pay more for something you already paid for.

huh?

[WWWTT]

The buses should stop when the economy is bad?

If there was more transit, people could park their cars... less insurance costs, less fuel costs means more money in people's pockets.

Some recent time in Europe has shown me just how far behind Canada is on transit and other transportation issues. It is about time that the nation spent money on getting people from A to B without a car.

One of the most glaring differences is train travel

13 hours to get from Toronto to NY

8 hours Paris to Madrid... twice the distance...

Same thing in China

One of the big problems is that our infrastructure,or much of it is built around "the car"

And not to mention that many people want to live in too butt no where,but always end up working at Younge and King!

WWWTT