Ontario Transit Debate

[Black Dog]

Province pledges two stop subway to Scarberia

Two stops for $1.4 billion? What a joke.

[Boges]

Province pledges two stop subway to Scarberia

Two stops for $1.4 billion? What a joke.

All funded by the Province. Saving this one Scarborough seats could end up proving to be much more expensive than the seats saved stopping those power plants.

[Boges]

If anyone thought this provincial government was loathsome enough. I present to you yesterday.

Toronto council had a plan pending where they had Mayor Ford agreeing to some sort of tax hike and funding from the Feds pending a September 30 deadline. Too soon for Glen Murray and Ms. Wynne! They come out yesterday saying the Feds and City have no plan for transit and they'll fund 100% a nub of a subway line that's simply replacing an existing line. It's less than half a line that passed council like last month.

WTF!?!?!?!

Then he goes on the radio blaming the Feds and Mayor Ford for not committing any money to transit. Who's been in power going on 10 years Murray? Where was your party planning for transit? You were too busy cancelling power plants, wasting taxpayer money on digitizing medical records and allowing an air ambulance service steal taxpayer money.

These guys are despicable!

[Black Dog]

If anyone thought this provincial government was loathsome enough. I present to you yesterday.

Toronto council had a plan pending where they had Mayor Ford agreeing to some sort of tax hike and funding from the Feds pending a September 30 deadline. Too soon for Glen Murray and Ms. Wynne! They come out yesterday saying the Feds and City have no plan for transit and they'll fund 100% a nub of a subway line that's simply replacing an existing line. It's less than half a line that passed council like last month.

WTF!?!?!?!

The existing line being replaced is the obsolete SRT, that needed replacing regardless. And the city proposal was for three stops, is only marginally longer and serves fewer priority areas.

Then he goes on the radio blaming the Feds and Mayor Ford for not committing any money to transit. Who's been in power going on 10 years Murray? Where was your party planning for transit? You were too busy cancelling power plants, wasting taxpayer money on digitizing medical records and allowing an air ambulance service steal taxpayer money.

These guys are despicable!

If anyone is to blame here, it's Ford, Stintz and the Scarbourough Six who decided to rip up the fully funded LRT plan for a worse, but more voter-friendly option. A pox on all their houses.

[Boges]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/09/18/transit_kathleen_wynne_names_panel_to_report_on_revenue_sources.html

I think Wynne realized how woefully unpopular Metrolinx's revenue tool proposals are. She's punting this over to a panel to do more consultation.

I predict we won't hear about this panel's findings until after the next election.

[Black Dog]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/09/18/transit_kathleen_wynne_names_panel_to_report_on_revenue_sources.html

I think Wynne realized how woefully unpopular Metrolinx's revenue tool proposals are. She's punting this over to a panel to do more consultation.

I predict we won't hear about this panel's findings until after the next election.

Oh good, more studies. Why build transit with the money you already have (see the already funded Scarbourough LRT line) when you can build expert panels?

I have never seen so much bungling from so many different levels of government from so many parts of the political spectrum.

[Boges]

I heard a theory that the Province decided to propose such an unworkable unappealing Subway plan that when the City rejects it they can claim they tried to do something but the city doesn't want to play ball.

The province's subway proposal will actually service far less people and it'll remove the current transit system for years. Also it's apparently not costed out properly.

Glen Murray is such a windbag.

[Black Dog]

I heard a theory that the Province decided to propose such an unworkable unappealing Subway plan that when the City rejects it they can claim they tried to do something but the city doesn't want to play ball.

The city started it when Stintz and the rest of the Scarborough Councillors who feel Scarberia "deserves" a subway (to hell with "needs") decided to ditch the already started and funded LRT plan.

The province's subway proposal will actually service far less people and it'll remove the current transit system for years. Also it's apparently not costed out properly.

No different than the one Toronto council proposed and Ford backed.

(Not that I'm defending the province here, far from it.)

Edited September 18, 2013 by Black Dog

[Michael Hardner]

I have never seen so much bungling from so many different levels of government from so many parts of the political spectrum.

You have nailed it. I hate to say it, but the process here is over-democratized, ie. politicians soapboxing for their constitutents at every turn, when what we need is solid consistent planning with public feedback at certain key points only.

We need a transit Stalin in Ontario, I think... And I can't believe I'm saying it...

[Black Dog]

You have nailed it. I hate to say it, but the process here is over-democratized, ie. politicians soapboxing for their constitutents at every turn, when what we need is solid consistent planning with public feedback at certain key points only.

We need a transit Stalin in Ontario, I think... And I can't believe I'm saying it...

My new theory is no politician wants to actually build transit. To put a finer point on it, no politician wants to be the one who gives the go ahead for massively expensive transit projects that will most certainly run over time and over budget. So rather than carry the ball, they punt it back and forth.

Raher than a Stalin, what we really need is a transit Walter White: someone ruthless with nothing to lose and who knows he/she has but a limited amount of time to achieve his/her goals.

[Boges]

We need a transit Stalin in Ontario, I think... And I can't believe I'm saying it...

Why because you want someone to unilaterally impose huge tax increases to pay for transit while never ONCE! bringing the idea to the voters?

The travesty here is that the Ontario Liberals started this money pit called Metrolinx that just serves to employ civil servants and has no ability to actually do anything.

When Metrolinx, an organization that has proven multiple times they are not good stewards of the public purse, decides it needs $2 billion a year for transit, the public and opposition should have massive reservations about it. Quite frankly there's been an outright rejection of the plan.

So the Liberals should: Scrap the plan? Call and Election to see what the GTA thinks of this plan? NOPE!!! Pay consultants generous salaries to do yet more consultations about an issue you've already paid an organization lots of money to come up with a solution for.

It's like a dog chasing it's tail and ultimately nothing will be done. Ehealth 2.0.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

Raher than a Stalin, what we really need is a transit Walter White: someone ruthless with nothing to lose and who knows he/she has but a limited amount of time to achieve his/her goals.

You should read about Robert Moses, via author Robert Caro. He did just this.

[Michael Hardner]

Why because you want someone to unilaterally impose huge tax increases to pay for transit while never ONCE! bringing the idea to the voters?

The travesty here is that the Ontario Liberals started this money pit called Metrolinx that just serves to employ civil servants and has no ability to actually do anything.

When Metrolinx, an organization that has proven multiple times they are not good stewards of the public purse, decides it needs $2 billion a year for transit, the public and opposition should have massive reservations about it. Quite frankly there's been an outright rejection of the plan.

So the Liberals should: Scrap the plan? Call and Election to see what the GTA thinks of this plan? NOPE!!! Pay consultants generous salaries to do yet more consultations about an issue you've already paid an organization lots of money to come up with a solution for.

It's like a dog chasing it's tail and ultimately nothing will be done. Ehealth 2.0.

So what is to be done ? Politicians grandstand and get nothing done, and transit authorities would bulldoze, build and spend.

I'm more in favour of option B - at least something gets done. And why don't we have this problem with highways anyway ?

[Boges]

So what is to be done ? Politicians grandstand and get nothing done, and transit authorities would bulldoze, build and spend.

I'm more in favour of option B - at least something gets done. And why don't we have this problem with highways anyway ?

But who says transit can't be built without shoveling lots of new money towards the money pit that's Metrolinx?

They can't even agree on a short subway line in Scarborough but everyone is supposed to take a real hit on their disposable income to fund transit in places where it's not practical yet.

You've had highways expanded but only for people that are "carpooling" what sense does that make in rush hour when everyone is commuting to different locations.

[Black Dog]

But who says transit can't be built without shoveling lots of new money towards the money pit that's Metrolinx?

Tim Hudak, for one.

They can't even agree on a short subway line in Scarborough but everyone is supposed to take a real hit on their disposable income to fund transit in places where it's not practical yet.

Well, there was a plan for transit where people already need it. The Big Move was supposed to include regional LRT, BRT, even a downtown relief line for Toronto etc etc. A lot of that stuff has fallen by the wayside and it all goes back to Mr. "Subways, subways, subways."

You've had highways expanded but only for people that are "carpooling" what sense does that make in rush hour when everyone is commuting to different locations.

Is that on Metrolinx?

[Boges]

Tim Hudak, for one.

He has his own plans for Transit and will have to lay them out in an election campaign same with the NDP. I highly doubt his transit policy is "Screw it"

Well, there was a plan for transit where people already need it. The Big Move was supposed to include regional LRT, BRT, even a downtown relief line for Toronto etc etc. A lot of that stuff has fallen by the wayside and it all goes back to Mr. "Subways, subways, subways."

You can blame Ford, Stintz and all for that, but if the Province didn't feel the same pressure from the people of Scarborough they wouldn't have ran a candidate in the recent bi-elections as the "Subway Champion".

Is that on Metrolinx?

Well that's the thing. Who's calling the shots? The province or Metrolinx? Clearly Metrolinx wasn't really consulted when Glen Murray did his 2-stop subway proposal a few weeks ago.

I'm just saying that the there are ways to reduce congestion in the burbs that don't involve massive rail-lines being built where people don't really need it.

Imagine the reduced traffic if the HOV lanes were simply an extra lane to help with congestion. Cuz right now they sit empty during rush hour while the other lanes are crawling along.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

He has his own plans for Transit and will have to lay them out in an election campaign same with the NDP. I highly doubt his transit policy is "Screw it"

His plan (unless he's gonna change it ) is to hand the whole works (the TTC) over to Metrolinx. That's on record.

You can blame Ford, Stintz and all for that, but if the Province didn't feel the same pressure from the people of Scarborough they wouldn't have ran a candidate in the recent bi-elections as the "Subway Champion".

I really doubt it's the people of Scarborough who started the fire. But you'll note I've been pretty wide ranging in my disapprobation.

Well that's the thing. Who's calling the shots? The province or Metrolinx? Clearly Metrolinx wasn't really consulted when Glen Murray did his 2-stop subway proposal a few weeks ago.

I'm just saying that the there are ways to reduce congestion in the burbs that don't involve massive rail-lines being built where people don't really need it.

In fairness, the SRT needs replacing anyway. An LRT would have more than sufficed. But instead of that, it's likely the people out there will get nothing and other projects will simply die on the vine while we all wait to see how much money the white elephant express to the mall will end iup costing.

Imagine the reduced traffic if the HOV lanes were simply an extra lane to help with congestion. Cuz right now they sit empty during rush hour while the other lanes are crawling along.

I can imagine it would reduce traffic...for about thirty seconds before it would just fill up again. Ditching the HOV lanes is putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

[Boges]

His plan (unless he's gonna change it ) is to hand the whole works (the TTC) over to Metrolinx. That's on record.

Well that was the initial goal of Metrolinx. To unify the region's transit systems so you don't have to make your way through 3 transit services just to get downtown. Under the Liberals they've been a money pit.

I can imagine it would reduce traffic...for about thirty seconds before it would just fill up again. Ditching the HOV lanes is putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

At least toll those lanes, which is one of the Big Move proposals I agree with. Right now the HOV lanes are a waste.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Boges

[Boges]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/12/12/ontario_transit_panel_recommends_5centperlitre_gas_tax_hike.html

A government-appointed advisory panel is recommending a five-cent-per-litre hike in the gas tax and borrowing more money to help fund public transit expansion in the greater Toronto-Hamilton area.

Government sources confirm the report from the 13-member panel chaired by Ryerson University’s Anne Golden projects boosting the gas tax could raise about $800 million a year, and generate another $80 million through the HST.

The Canadian Press has learned the report will also recommend the government could increase the rate more than five cents a litre.

Ontario currently imposes a 14.7-cent-per-litre levy on unleaded gasoline, which hasn’t changed in more than 20 years.

The report, which will be released later today, will also recommend a dedicated trust fund so drivers know the extra tax they are paying can be used only for public transit improvements — something the Liberals have already said they plan to do.

Interesting that they backed off the HST hike which might be something people could stomach BUT the only "revenue tool" they decide to go with is the most punitive. Raising the price of gas raises the price of everything.

And the Gas Tax isn't a sustainable way to raise funds. As vehicles become more fuel efficient the return is far less. Also if people actually do decide to use public transit the return is reduced.

When will this plan go to the House? Will they try to ram it through and force the NDPs hand? I don't see how this happens unless the Liberals receive a mandate and policies like these have been proven to be political losers. Especially when you consider that it could only feasibly be done province-wide.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Boges

[Topaz]

As a resident outside of Toronto and don't travel to Toronto, why should ALL of Ontario pay for Toronto's transportation problems? If they want to hike gas tax let it be the GTA or the region that gets the benefit from the subway.

[Boges]

As a resident outside of Toronto and don't travel to Toronto, why should ALL of Ontario pay for Toronto's transportation problems? If they want to hike gas tax let it be the GTA or the region that gets the benefit from the subway.

In theory the money generated outside of the GTA will go to infrastructure there.

But does anyone think this government could actually manage funds that way? I don't trust that this government can effectively run ANYTHING at this point let alone another massive influx of revenue.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Boges

[guyser]

As a resident outside of Toronto and don't travel to Toronto, why should ALL of Ontario pay for Toronto's transportation problems? If they want to hike gas tax let it be the GTA or the region that gets the benefit from the subway.

Because to get TO moving begets the whole province moving. We lose billions from gridlock.

And if you dont like that, then ask this....why does TO have to pay for a metric crapload of your infrastructure? Did Grimsby really pay the whole bill on their new hospital?

The truth is, the Govt is woefully cheap on funding transit and the prior taxes on gas should have but were not earmarked for transit, even tho they said it was.

Something has to be done

[DFCaper]

Because to get TO moving begets the whole province moving. We lose billions from gridlock.

And if you dont like that, then ask this....why does TO have to pay for a metric crapload of your infrastructure? Did Grimsby really pay the whole bill on their new hospital?

The truth is, the Govt is woefully cheap on funding transit and the prior taxes on gas should have but were not earmarked for transit, even tho they said it was.

Something has to be done

I perfer to think that Alberta is paying for our infastructure, not Toronto, now that we are a have not province.

Your logic, moved up a level of Government, would be like the Federal government creating a special tax on all Canadians to help pay for Health care in Alberta, so that Alberta doesn't need a sales tax. You know Alberta, the engine of this country and pays more than it's fair share!

I do understand that since there is a head quarters for the company I work for in Toronto that filters out money made by our operations. That a huge MERs on my retirement savings is collected by people in Toronto, so why not pay extra taxes to help keep their property taxes low. After all, those rich corporate head quaters workers and investment bankers shouldn't be expected to pay property taxes after paying there income taxes... God forbid... They do pay more in taxes than I do already!!! That the fact they pay 1/2 the rate I do is fine because being rich, they still pay more than I do.

[guyser]

I perfer to think that Alberta is paying for our infastructure, not Toronto, now that we are a have not province.

You can think that I suppose, but it is categorically not true. TO itself probably loses more $$ (paid vs return) than Alta pays....ok maybe not quite but close I bet.

You know Alberta, the engine of this country and pays more than it's fair share!

First part mostly false, second part true!

I do understand that since there is a head quarters for the company I work for in Toronto that filters out money made by our operations. That a huge MERs on my retirement savings is collected by people in Toronto, so why not pay extra taxes to help keep their property taxes low. After all, those rich corporate head quaters workers and investment bankers shouldn't be expected to pay property taxes after paying there income taxes... God forbid... They do pay more in taxes than I do already!!! That the fact they pay 1/2 the rate I do is fine because being rich, they still pay more than I do.

Dont have a clue what you are saying to me here.

But I did get the taxes part, and agree TO should raise the prop taxes....a lot !

Edited December 13, 2013 by Guyser2

[Boges]

This isn't about who pays for what. It's about an inept government who have repeatedly proven they couldn't run a lemonade stand saying they've squandered the money given to them, so rhey need more, and are willing to stick it to average commuters across the province to pay for improved transit for people who already use transit.

The big move won't reduce congestion. It'll help people who already take transit. Want to reduce congestion? Expand the 401? They've already made the collector lanes extend out to Mississauga without a gas tax increase.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Boges