Ontario Transit Debate

[Boges]

It would appear my vacation from this site over April was due to my vitriolic treatment of the Ontario Liberal Party. The day I discovered my unfortunate banning I was all worked up and wanted to start a thread over our new leader Kathleen Wynne telling Greater Toronto Area people the fact that she was completely drinking the koolaid from Metrolinx on it's plan called "The Big Move"

It's a 25 year plan for the GTHA (Greater Toronto Hamilton Area) that's pegged at $50 billion. Of course this coming from the same people that thought canceling the Oakville plant would cost $40 million.

In Ontario our premier and many other UNELECTED advocates have been trumpeting the term "revenue tools" as a way to fund this ambitious plan which essentially is improvement to Toronto Transit with some neat projects for Mississauga, Brampton and Vaughan. The rest of the "GTHA" really doesn't get much out of this plan until much later, if at all.

While Wynne has said she would implement these "tools" without the consent of mayors of the region, most notably Rob Ford who rejects any levies to fund transit. The Casino will solve all of the cities problems.

I clearly don't share his myopia but I'll share with you some of the "tools" Metrolinx has proposed. Also many aren't too popular.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/04/06/metrolinx_transit_taxes_rejected_by_66_per_cent_poll.html

Though Wynne has trumpeted the need for Revenue Tools she has yet to come out with the ones that she prefers. The budget is coming out tomorrow though. A report today says the one she will preview is a toll on the new HOV lanes that were built on highways in the 905 (QEW, 403 and 404)

Now I don't mind that but there are others that are very troubling. The most troubling is an added 10 cent/litre addition to the Gas Tax. That's insane! That drives up the cost of everything in the region, potentially the province for improvement in Toronto transit.

Tolling the Gardiner and DVP is reasonable solution to Toronto's transit woes. But that's not one of the tools Toronto Transit Advocates support. They want parking levies, a hike to the HST and that Gas Tax idea I so loathe.

We can debate each of these tools on their own merit but there are tools that effect people that drive in the region far more than it effects people that stand to use the transit in Toronto.

IMHO some of these tools should be a non-starter for the NDP and anyone outside the 416 and immediate 905.

Horvath has said she opposes adding these tools to the average Ontarian. Well she better, how can she force the Liberals to try and reduce to cost of car insurance but allow them to exponentially increase the price of driving with some of these more extreme tools.

The one that's the worst is a GPS on each car that would track every km you drive no matter where you go, even if you aren't contributing to gridlock. Talk about Big Brother!

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

There is more money in the system generally, that I believe. How do we get that money to pay for infrastructure ? Are there government programs that can be diverted to this ?

Taxing people seems to me to be a no-go. Everybody is crying poor, but somebody can afford to chip in.

[GostHacked]

There is more money in the system generally, that I believe. How do we get that money to pay for infrastructure ? Are there government programs that can be diverted to this ?

Taxing people seems to me to be a no-go. Everybody is crying poor, but somebody can afford to chip in.

Run out of money? Print more.

[Black Dog]

We can debate each of these tools on their own merit but there are tools that effect people that drive in the region far more than it effects people that stand to use the transit in Toronto.

IMHO some of these tools should be a non-starter for the NDP and anyone outside the 416 and immediate 905.

Horvath has said she opposes adding these tools to the average Ontarian. Well she better, how can she force the Liberals to try and reduce to cost of car insurance but allow them to exponentially increase the price of driving with some of these more extreme tools.

To be clear: are you suggesting that people who don't drive or take transit in the GTA should be exempt from any of these tools? If so, why?

[Boges]

To be clear: are you suggesting that people who don't drive or take transit in the GTA should be exempt from any of these tools? If so, why?

I'm suggesting people who stand to gain most from these proposed moves should pay more. Some of these tools are plain regressive or should I even say punitive to drivers in the 905.

When you have Karen Stintz opposing a surcharge on fares and Wynne saying Property Taxes won't be used to fund the Big Move, it becomes evident that the people that benefit most from the Big Move, won't be asked to pay for it.

Also no where on the list of Metrolinx revenue tools are distance tolls for fares. Apparently the TTC has a flate rate, it costs the same to go across the city as it does to go 2 blocks. That makes no sense. GO charges you more if you're coming in from Hamilton compared to coming in from Mississauga. Especially with Presto coming in, it'd be easy to charge people using zones like they do in London.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

I never said that. It's less a driver vs. transit user than it is a 905 vs 416 debate.

I'm just trying to figure out what you are saying. 905ers shouldn't pay for transit in the 416?

But when you have Karen Stintz opposing a surcharge on fares and Wynne saying Property Taxes won't be used to fund the Big Move, it becomes evident that the people that benefit most from the Big Move, won't be asked to pay for it.

How are 416ers exempt from any of the revenue tools?

Also no where on the list of Metrolinx revenue tools are distance tolls for fares. Apparently the TTC has a flate rate, it costs the same to go across the city as it does to go 2 blocks. That makes no sense. GO charges you more if you're coming in from Hamilton compared to coming in from Mississauga. Especially with Presto coming in, it'd be easy to charge people using zones like they do in London.

Sure, zone fares are a fine idea. Won't bring in anything near the kind of revenue needed to actually fund transit expansion, and could actually deter people from taking transit, lowering fare revenue and adding to the problem of gridlock. I'm not opposed to the idea, but it should be part of a full suite of revenue tools.

IMO, the best tool for funding transit should be increasing the GST by 1% and dedicating that money to a national transit/infrastructure fund.

[Boges]

IMO, the best tool for funding transit should be increasing the GST by 1% and dedicating that money to a national transit/infrastructure fund.

That could be more appealing. (if you could trust this government not to spend the money on canceling gas plants)

But I think it would be an election loser for the Liberals. Someone else in the province would see a hike in the HST solely funding the Big Move which is a Toronto project mostly.

[Fletch 27]

Ontario is in Massive debt.. The Liberals have driven ALL of Ontario into a hole. THIS is NOT the time to be even discussing any additional Liberal projects.. We can wait till the Billions of dollars is paid off... As per Whynne, that's only a few years away.

[guyser]

THIS is NOT the time to be even discussing any additional Liberal projects.. We can wait till the Billions of dollars is paid off...

The project has alrady started.

There is a giant whole in the earth a block and a half from me, Metrolinx is a go.

Should have been done decades ago when proposed.

[Boges]

The project has alrady started.There is a giant whole in the earth a block and a half from me, Metrolinx is a go.Should have been done decades ago when proposed.

Sure and last week I heard that GO is doubling service on the Lakeshore Line. There are plenty of projects going on all the time.

But this Big Move is just a way to bleed money from the suburbs to fund (mostly) TTC improvements. It's regional pooling again.

[The_Squid]

The buses should stop when the economy is bad?

If there was more transit, people could park their cars... less insurance costs, less fuel costs means more money in people's pockets.

Some recent time in Europe has shown me just how far behind Canada is on transit and other transportation issues. It is about time that the nation spent money on getting people from A to B without a car.

One of the most glaring differences is train travel

13 hours to get from Toronto to NY

8 hours Paris to Madrid... twice the distance...

[Fletch 27]

That's not even part of the "Big Move"... And given the fact that "Toronto proper" is now a bedroom community for the rest of the GTA (More people commute OUT of Toronto to work in surrounding GTA).. I think that any efforts should be dictated by where the money is.. Mississauga and the rest of the GTA.. but AFTER the Liberals manage the debt crisis in Ontario. NOT now...

Wynne is simply playing to DT Toronto and her last bastion of Liberal support... Didn't we just experience that with the 513 Million dollar Cancelation "fee" from the Oakville and Mississauga Hydro projects?

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/04/08/toronto_a_suburb_its_begun.html

The project has alrady started.

There is a giant whole in the earth a block and a half from me, Metrolinx is a go.

Should have been done decades ago when proposed.

[Boges]

The buses should stop when the economy is bad?

13 hours to get from Toronto to NY

8 hours Paris to Madrid... twice the distance...

We learned from details related to the terrorist plot that a lot of that time is spent crossing the boarder getting everyone to clear customs. Also different crew have to come on to take over the train in the US.

Europe is essentially one large country, no real borders.

Also are you taking into consideration how many stops are made?

BTW a lot of the Big Move plans aren't really addressing expanding transit to the suburbs but fixing transit in urban areas where use is already at saturation. These revenue tools will just make driving harder.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[The_Squid]

Europe is essentially one large country, no real borders.

Not true.

Also are you taking into consideration how many stops are made?

a lot of that time is spent crossing the boarder [sic]

If it stops 30 times, that's not a good thing. Clearing customs should be really simple on a train... or at a train station...

The point is that train travel in Canada/USA is extremely inefficient compared to Europe. Are you suggesting those backwards, freedom hating, socialist Europeans can do it efficiently and the freedom loving, free enterprise North Americans suck at it? The question is, why is that?

[Boges]

Not true.

If it stops 30 times, that's not a good thing. Clearing customs should be really simple on a train... or at a train station...

The point is that train travel in Canada/USA is extremely inefficient compared to Europe. Are you suggesting those backwards, freedom hating, socialist Europeans can do it efficiently and the freedom loving, free enterprise North Americans suck at it? The question is, why is that?

Well is there a huge demand for an efficient international train service? Also the price is rather prohibitive. It's cheaper to fly across the country than take the train. Who's fault is that?

I guess Euros haven't embraced the joy of a roadtrip, cuz that's how I'd get to NYC if I couldn't fly.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[DFCaper]

Not sure why I (519 area resident) should be forced to pay the GTA's municipality's shortfall. They already pay less than 1/2 the municipal tax rate that I pay. And the public transit here is almost non-existent.

The Liberials could have done all of these upgrades if they wanted with Money they already collect if they would stop the huge wastes they create.. (eHealth, Gas Plants, etc...)

[guyser]

I think that any efforts should be dictated by where the money is..

Toronto has the money.

Dont recieve much from the Feds nor the Prov govt's.

The rest of Ontario should be thankful we dont keep much .(not that we could but point made)

[guyser]

Not sure why I (519 area resident) should be forced to pay the GTA's municipality's shortfall. They already pay less than 1/2 the municipal tax rate that I pay. And the public transit here is almost non-existent.

Because the GTA supports, if not underwrites a ton of stuff the 519 has.(and the 613 and 705 and 905 and 807-guess thats all of them)

The 519 folks commute to TO en masse and add to the traffic woes. Hell, Gueplh empties and drives back and forth all day to TO.

As for the prop tax, no doubts there. We do need to raise our Prop Tax.

[Boges]

I missed these

I'm just trying to figure out what you are saying. 905ers shouldn't pay for transit in the 416?

905ers can pay for transit, and do. But the Big Move requires $2 billion a year for 25 years. I'd argue the vast majority of the improvements are in the 416 and certain areas of Mississauga and Brampton. Revenue tools that are blanket flat charges like a 1% increase to the HST or a 10¢/litre rise in the gas taxes would be unfairly collecting these funds based on where the improvements are focused.

How are 416ers exempt from any of the revenue tools?

Well if you don't own a car you won't be on the hook for much. HOV lanes aren't in the 416, Wynne has said she won't ask to have property taxes increased and if you live and work in Toronto you won't care that the DVP and Gardiner might be tolled. Also Stintz doesn't want a fair surcharge on the TTC. Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[guyser]

404 has HOV lanes right down to Eglinton I believe

The better and faster this gets up and done, the better all of S Ont is. It will move people faster and easier.

How to pay for it....now there s a problem.

[Boges]

404 has HOV lanes right down to Eglinton I believeThe better and faster this gets up and done, the better all of S Ont is. It will move people faster and easier.How to pay for it....now there s a problem.

I don't mind having tolls on HOV lanes. How many people carpool right now anyway?

The HOV lanes prove that there are ways to improve transportation without blanket provincial tolls, taxes and levies.

The thing about tolls, is that the 407 proves many are reluctant to take them. The 401 can be bumper to bumper but people will prefer that over paying to go on the 407.

You toll the Gardiner, Lakeshore will become a parking lot.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

But this Big Move is just a way to bleed money from the suburbs to fund (mostly) TTC improvements. It's regional pooling again.

That doesn't seem to be the actual case. Lots of projects slated for other communities. Of course, the majority of projects will likely be in the place where there's the greatest need. Makes sense.

905ers can pay for transit, and do. But the Big Move requires $2 billion a year for 25 years. I'd argue the vast majority of the improvements are in the 416 and certain areas of Mississauga and Brampton. Revenue tools that are blanket flat charges like a 1% increase to the HST or a 10¢/litre rise in the gas taxes would be unfairly collecting these funds based on where the improvements are focused.

Great does this mean I get to opt out of paying those portions of my tax bill that don't directly benefit me? If not, why not?

Well if you don't own a car you won't be on the hook for much.

I'm already on the hook for a huge Metro pass bill on a system with rapidly declining levels of service.

HOV lanes aren't in the 416, Wynne has said she won't ask to have property taxes increased and if you live and work in Toronto you won't care that the DVP and Gardiner might be tolled. Also Stintz doesn't want a fair surcharge on the TTC.

The politicking is pretty gross. End of the day, nothing will get done, and Toronto will continue to slide its slide into becoming Detroit.

[Fletch 27]

Guyser, More people commute OUT of Toronto now to work in other areas. Please see my Link.. Toronto is the GTA's "Bedroom community"..

Because the GTA supports, if not underwrites a ton of stuff the 519 has.(and the 613 and 705 and 905 and 807-guess thats all of them)

The 519 folks commute to TO en masse and add to the traffic woes. Hell, Gueplh empties and drives back and forth all day to TO.

As for the prop tax, no doubts there. We do need to raise our Prop Tax.

[guyser]

I don't mind having tolls on HOV lanes. How many people carpool right now anyway?

Not enough , and if my observation is worth anything (take 404/401 everyday) those that do slow the rest of us down. Time and again, cut to the HOV lane and slow down.

Tolls should be a no go anywhere in Ontario. Shouldnt fly no way no how. Find the money somewhere but tolls should be a no go. The 407 tolls are too much, ergo why its empty .

Edited May 1, 2013 by guyser

[Black Dog]

Guyser, More people commute OUT of Toronto now to work in other areas. Please see my Link.. Toronto is the GTA's "Bedroom community"..

What is your point?

I wonder too, the extent to which the economic growth of the 905 is being subsidized by tax dollars from people in the 416.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Black Dog