Ontario Transit Debate

Boges · May 10, 2013

The thing about the Chong report is that the likes of Stintz rejected it outright last year but suddenly wants to debate those same tools this week. She really is a chronic flip-flopper.

I think the mayor was more upset that council wasn't willing to build that subway to Scarbourgh and opted for the LRT.

I don't think the mayor's stubborn behaviour here is productive. There are tools I could get behind, but the ones I outright reject were also rejected by council yesterday, and then some.

Black Dog · May 10, 2013

The thing about the Chong report is that the likes of Stintz rejected it outright last year but suddenly wants to debate those same tools this week. She really is a chronic flip-flopper.

The Chong report was a political creation designed to support Ford's subway "vision" which was never workable to begin with. It was a pie in the sky document.

I don't think the mayor's stubborn behaviour here is productive. There are tools I could get behind, but the ones I outright reject were also rejected by council yesterday, and then some.

the only thing they actually accomplished was making themselves look like children fighting over toys in the sandbox. Well guess what: mom and dad (the province) are gonna do what they want kids.

Boges · May 10, 2013

The Province has been equally nebulous about what tools it supports. The only one they've said they'd implement would be an option for single drivers to use HOV lanes by paying a toll. Which sounds like it might cost more than it'll make. If people were interested in paying a toll they'd use the 407.

Wynne is also waiting for Metrolinx recommendations. We can see from this Toronto Council think yesterday that recommendations from unelected officials don't mean a whole lot.

Being in a minority parliament, it would be anti-democratic if implementing any new taxes didn't come up for a vote. I'll say this again, it would be utterly hypocritical for the NDP to support something like a gas tax hike while demanding auto insurance be reduced 15%.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Boges

Black Dog · May 10, 2013

The Province has been equally nebulous about what tools it supports. The only one they've said they'd implement would be an option for single drivers to use HOV lanes by paying a toll. Which sounds like it might cost more than it'll make. If people were interested in paying a toll they'd use the 407.

Wynne is also waiting for Metrolinx recommendations.

That's why they haven't come forward with anything.

We can see from this Toronto Council think yesterday that recommendations from unelected officials don't mean a whole lot.

Or elected officials, apparently. :unsure:

guyser · May 10, 2013

I see Durham Region starts a new bus line on Monday.

Got $85M from the Province. Wonder where some of that money came from?

Maybe the Prov has $550M for TO since the pop is 5 times that of Durham.

Boges · May 10, 2013

I see Durham Region starts a new bus line on Monday.

Got $85M from the Province. Wonder where some of that money came from?

Maybe the Prov has $550M for TO since the pop is 5 times that of Durham.

Yeah because The province gives nothing to Toronto. The big debate last year was whether the province would fund Subways or LRTs to Scarborough. They choose LRTs but some Scarborough councillor might lose the next election because of it so they tried to reopen the debatem

guyser · May 10, 2013

Yeah because The province gives nothing to Toronto.

Not nearly enough.

Do the math, billions flow out that dont come back.

The rest of my post was a tad facetious

CliffStir · May 14, 2013

I've noticed with all the rhetoric and arguing over who does or doesn't support what new taxes, er, revenue tools that not once has our elected leadership even suggested fiscal responsibility, or fraud prevention, or government accountability going forward..

Personally, I'd like to put forward the idea of seizing the assets of the likes of Chris Mazza who have systematically defrauded the tax payer under the ever watchful and diligent eyes of those entrusted with the keys to the cash box.

Incompetence and theft rule the day once again, and we all just accept that the only penalty for these crimes will be that someone won't be reelected (hopefully), but we will continue to pay the con artists that have already stolen our wallets in the first place.

How can anyone in or out of government rationalize that??

we need a tax revolt

Boges · May 27, 2013

Well here it is!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/05/26/metrolinx_backs_hikes_in_hst_gas_tax_and_new_parking_levy.html

It will cost the average Toronto region household an additional $477 a year in taxes to overcome a generation of public transit neglect and crippling road congestion under a transit investment strategy being unveiled by Metrolinx on Monday.

The Toronto Star has learned that the provincial transportation agency is recommending a 1 per cent sales tax, 5-cent/litre gas tax, a 25-cent-per-day non-residential parking levy and a 15 per cent hike in development charges to raise just over $2 billion annually.

That’s the cost of building the Metrolinx 25-year, $50-billion Big Move transportation plan. It calls for more than triple the region’s 500 km of rapid transit to about 1,700 km and would put a transit stop within 2 km of 75 per cent of residents.

The impact on taxpayers is far less than the $1,600 a year Metrolinx estimates congestion costs the average regional household. It is also less than half the $1,000 floated recently by some local politicians.

Five years in the making, the funding plan represents “a watershed moment” for the region, said Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig in an interview last week.

He said his agency has done its best to come up with a strategy that reflects residents’ hunger for accountability and fairness in the way the money is collected and distributed. Now it’s up to the province to consider implementing the plan.

“These are difficult choices but they’re important choices,” said McCuaig, adding that he’s confident Premier Kathleen Wynne understands the urgency of the region’s mounting $6 billion-a-year congestion crisis for business and quality of life.

If Wynne unilaterally implements this levies there should be an immediate revolt against the government. These are not the types of policies you can just inflict on an entire province without some serious consultation.

And I'm not talking the consultation a group of bureaucrats like Metrolinx has undergone. I don't trust them. The cost over runs of Presto is evidence that Metrolinx can't really be trusted with a dedicated source of revenue like this.

Also the NDP would be absolutely hypocritical to allow these levies to be implemented. An average of $500 per year taken away from people yet they threatened to force an election over a 15% cut in auto insurance?

Edited May 27, 2013 by Boges

The_Squid · May 27, 2013

Armed insurrection is the only way to fight these transportation funding ideas.... If you disagree with policy, certainly a revolt is in order... elections are for pussies!!

Boges · May 27, 2013

I used the term revolt loosely. I meant outrage that would force the oppositions hand an finally force an election.

scribblet · May 27, 2013

This is unacceptable, new 'revenue tools' my foot. Sock it to me, Sock it to me ,Sock it to me,

Boges · May 28, 2013

As expected, both the PCs and the NDP are against these specific revenue tools. What happened to the HOV Toll lanes and tolling the highways into Toronto?

It seems they dismissed all the Revenue tools that require some startup costs to implement, they just went for plain taxes they can ad to Ontario tax payers without any upfront costs.

Massive waste of money, these ideas are DOA.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Boges

Keepitsimple · May 28, 2013

Don't have the exact figures but Ontario has revenues of about $110 billion and expenses of about $125 billion - a deficit of about $15 billion. The government brags about their "plan" to eliminate the $15 billion deficit in 3 or 4 years....yet it can't come up with a plan to use existing revenues to re-allocate only $2 billion per year to modernize transit - an expenditure that many would agree would spur more business and revenue - or at least preventing it from fleeing the degradation that is Ontario.

Fix the way government is run before you dip into our pockets again!

DFCaper · May 28, 2013

I am so disgusted that the Tax and spend liberials is again trying to use tax payers money to buy seats in TO.

"We are going to tax all Ontarians to subsidize the GTA so the can keep their tax rate well below the rest of the province."

I would take the 1% HST tax hike if the would change my property tax rate to be the same as TOs.

I guess the NDP rewarding them after the Gas Plant fiasco has given the Liberials the OK to keep using my money to buy power!!!!

scribblet · May 28, 2013

Love those new 'revenue tools', what a cool way to say New Taxes

I really don't see why all of Ontario should pay for Toronto's transportation. Sure the province has to help out, but that's an awful lot to stick to all of us. Toronto's property taxes are lower than the rest of Ontario, maybe it's time to bring them in line with the rest of us.

How about a referendum on this...

GostHacked · May 28, 2013

Not always... often the toll is placed there to pay for the construction afterwards.

Are our taxes not used to repair infrastructure?

Even if it was already paid for, there are other reasons for tolls. Congestion tolls is a big one. Discourage cars and encourage public transport into cities. It also raises money for future infrastructure. Traffic congestion is a cost the economy. The smoother and more efficient things run, the better for the economy.

Are our taxes not used to repair and upgrade infrastructure? What are these idiots doing with our money?

Black Dog · May 28, 2013

Love those new 'revenue tools', what a cool way to say New Taxes

Taxes should only be used on things that directly benefit me.

FIFY.

Archanfel · May 29, 2013

Love those new 'revenue tools', what a cool way to say New Taxes

I really don't see why all of Ontario should pay for Toronto's transportation. Sure the province has to help out, but that's an awful lot to stick to all of us. Toronto's property taxes are lower than the rest of Ontario, maybe it's time to bring them in line with the rest of us.

How about a referendum on this...

Referendums cost money and what's the point? Everybody thought the Liberals would lose the last election and what happened? That's reality in Ontario. People love being taxed. They would say otherwise, but they proved that using their votes.

margrace · May 30, 2013

Public transportation is the way to go. Cheaper, faster, more comfortable. Cars are a big waste of money and are endangering our children's future

Archanfel · May 30, 2013

Public transportation is the way to go. Cheaper, faster, more comfortable. Cars are a big waste of money and are endangering our children's future

You are entitled to your opinion and you are welcome to donate money to public transit, just don't force it onto the rest of us.

Black Dog · May 30, 2013

You are entitled to your opinion and you are welcome to donate money to public transit, just don't force it onto the rest of us.

You are entitled to your opinion and you are welcome to donate money to highways, just don't force it onto the rest of us.

scribblet · May 30, 2013

Love those new 'revenue tools', what a cool way to say New Taxes

~~Taxes should only be used on things that directly benefit me.~~

Inserting a line into my statement is dishonest and unethical.. I never said that second line.

scribblet · May 30, 2013

You are entitled to your opinion and you are welcome to donate money to public transit, just don't force it onto the rest of us.

Exactly. I wouldn`t have a problem with a one time donation of maybe $50.00 on my taxes to help chip in as public transportation is important. Also this would provide a lot of jobs, however, the amount being proposed is unacceptable. No doubt the poster who thinks it good will be more than willing to pony up another 5 cents a litre for gas, or another 1% for the HST - must be nice to be able to afford that and not care about it.

Black Dog · May 30, 2013

Inserting a line into my statement is dishonest and unethical.. I never said that second line.

I wouldn`t have a problem with a one time donation of maybe $50.00 on my taxes to help chip in as public transportation is important. Also this would provide a lot of jobs, however, the amount being proposed is unacceptable.

Why?

No doubt the poster who thinks it good will be more than willing to pony up another 5 cents a litre for gas, or another 1% for the HST - must be nice to be able to afford that and not care about it.

I don't drive so a gas tax wouldn't impact me. A one per cent across the board HST increase would be great. As for being able to afford it: we're literally talking nickles and dimes here.