Ontario Transit Debate

[Boges]

Same thing in China

One of the big problems is that our infrastructure,or much of it is built around "the car"

And not to mention that many people want to live in too butt no where,but always end up working at Younge and King!

WWWTT

Would you consider "Butt Bleep Nowhere" Brampton?

[GostHacked]

huh?

What is the confusion? These roads were built with taxpayer money and now they want to throw a toll on it. Bilking you for more money when you already paid for it. I see it as extortion.

[Boges]

So in the budget today they'll unveil a plan to make those HOV lanes also Toll lanes. Basically you'd be charged a toll if you're in that lane solo.

This morning I drove on a highway with an HOV during rush hour and the lane was rather empty. This is the least objectionable revenue tool so it's no surprise that Wynne started us out with this one.

It's the plan to toll, perhaps, the 401 and an addition gas tax that will cause outrage. Those will be election losers for the Wynne government.

The thing about the HOV lanes are that they are only really useful during certain hours. There are plenty times of the year where using it is useless. Also it only really help reduce congestion during rush hour because if I'm going someplace with my wife or some friends, it's not like I'm taking other cars of the road.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

So in the budget today they'll unveil a plan to make those HOV lanes also Toll lanes. Basically you'd be charged a toll if you're in that lane solo.

This morning I drove on a highway with an HOV during rush hour and the lane was rather empty. This is the least objectionable revenue tool so it's no surprise that Wynne started us out with this one.

It's the plan to toll, perhaps, the 401 and an addition gas tax that will cause outrage. Those will be election losers for the Wynne government.

The thing about the HOV lanes are that they are only really useful during certain hours. There are plenty times of the year where using it is useless. Also it only really help reduce congestion during rush hour because if I'm going someplace with my wife or some friends, it's not like I'm taking other cars of the road.

Can we discuss these things on whether or not they are good policy without the political dimension? Because doing nothing (ie. the Rob Ford approach) is a guaranteed election winner. Good policy? Not so much.

[Boges]

Can we discuss these things on whether or not they are good policy without the political dimension? Because doing nothing (ie. the Rob Ford approach) is a guaranteed election winner. Good policy? Not so much.

I think we spent two pages yesterday discussing the merits of those tools. It's clear we don't agree and are beyond convincing each other the other is right or wrong. Someone in the suburbs of Toronto has a different perspective of how transit should be funded and what needs to be done than someone in downtown Toronto.

That's why it is political. If Wynne decides to alienate the 905, and beyond, to assist Toronto's transit problems, she'll be punished for it. Some of these tools are specifically punitive to people that drive, even if they don't contribute to congestion at all.

I concede that Rob Ford's approach here is wrong-headed. Things will need to be done. I'm supportive of some of these tools, there are just a few that would make me very angry if they ever tried, and I wouldn't be alone on that.

Just as, you might be angry if they added a heft surtax on fares to pay for the Big Move, I'd be angry if they ad to the already gigantic gas tax.

[Fletch 27]

If 360 Million in permanent savings for Toronto in his first year is "doing nothing"..... I hope he continues doing nuthin...

or is good Policy Millers 44% increase in Budget good? He sure didn't "do nothing" huh.... He was an "over achiever" I guess

Can we discuss these things on whether or not they are good policy without the political dimension? Because doing nothing (ie. the Rob Ford approach) is a guaranteed election winner. Good policy? Not so much.

[guyser]

If 360 Million in permanent savings for Toronto in his first year is "doing nothing

Got a cite for that?

[Fletch 27]

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/10/25/rob-fords-success-measured-in-money-saved

Millers Watch: The deficits rose every year, despite an influx of cash from the Land Transfer and Personal Vehicle Taxes. Spending became unsustainable.

Under Ford’s watch — and with the disciplined leadership of Del Grande — a total of $360-million in permanent savings have been found in the first two budgets. The budget hole has been reduced to $200-million with promises from Del Grande to apply an equal amount of discipline to the 2013 budget

Let me guess, Not a valid source?

Got a cite for that?

[The_Squid]

What is the confusion? These roads were built with taxpayer money and now they want to throw a toll on it.

Not always... often the toll is placed there to pay for the construction afterwards.

Bilking you for more money when you already paid for it. I see it as extortion.

Even if it was already paid for, there are other reasons for tolls. Congestion tolls is a big one. Discourage cars and encourage public transport into cities. It also raises money for future infrastructure. Traffic congestion is a cost the economy. The smoother and more efficient things run, the better for the economy.

[guyser]

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/10/25/rob-fords-success-measured-in-money-saved

Millers Watch: The deficits rose every year, despite an influx of cash from the Land Transfer and Personal Vehicle Taxes. Spending became unsustainable.

Under Ford’s watch — and with the disciplined leadership of Del Grande — a total of $360-million in permanent savings have been found in the first two budgets. The budget hole has been reduced to $200-million with promises from Del Grande to apply an equal amount of discipline to the 2013 budget

Let me guess, Not a valid source?

Oh it can be a valid source , but in this case, Sue Ann Levy?....not so much.

She is fine journalist....fine as in she can fudge numbers easily for her readers since most of them want the kool aid and she is serving it up.

You see she uses %'s when talking about Miller, and dollars when about Ford. Problem is, Ford has been increasing the budget at the same rate.

Lets not forget the report by KPMG who found all but 3% of city services runniong at optimal levels. And ya know, I will take KPMG over Levy any day, twice on Sunday.

Also, want to talk about the luck he has had ( and others) with the huge unexpected land transfer tax income? Mayor Ford found a couple of grand in his pants pocket for the equivalent.

But hey, I will ask again....where is "360 Million in permanent savings for Toronto in his first year "

[guyser]

The smoother and more efficient things run, the better for the economy.

905'ers dont quite grasp that idea.

[Fletch 27]

The article is from his first year... Look at the date...

Oh it can be a valid source , but in this case, Sue Ann Levy?....not so much.

She is fine journalist....fine as in she can fudge numbers easily for her readers since most of them want the kool aid and she is serving it up.

You see she uses %'s when talking about Miller, and dollars when about Ford. Problem is, Ford has been increasing the budget at the same rate.

Lets not forget the report by KPMG who found all but 3% of city services runniong at optimal levels. And ya know, I will take KPMG over Levy any day, twice on Sunday.

Also, want to talk about the luck he has had ( and others) with the huge unexpected land transfer tax income? Mayor Ford found a couple of grand in his pants pocket for the equivalent.

But hey, I will ask again....where is "360 Million in permanent savings for Toronto in his first year "

[Fletch 27]

Look to the West and you will find a few little known towns that are hard to say.... "Mississauga" and "Milton".. Far better shape than "Hog Town"... Financially of coarse....

905'ers dont quite grasp that idea.

[guyser]

The article is from his first year... Look at the date...

Ya think so huh?

You might have checked that before responding , but you and Ford suffer the same affliction, mouth before thinking.

For the record, Ford elected fall of 2010....article printed Oct 2012 .

[guyser]

Look to the West and you will find a few little known towns that are hard to say.... "Mississauga" and "Milton".. Far better shape than "Hog Town"... Financially of coarse....

Sure, none of them has anything to cover off.

What a dumb comparison.

Milton has less people than the two neighbourhoods that surround me.

Edited May 2, 2013 by guyser

[Boges]

Milton has less people than the two neighbourhoods that surround me.

Milton's about 100,000 people right now. Fastest growing community in Canada. The Province has growth plans for the town that wold see it over 300,000 by 2030. And the Big Move doesn't address that community much at all.

[Black Dog]

If 360 Million in permanent savings for Toronto in his first year is "doing nothing"..... I hope he continues doing nuthin...

or is good Policy Millers 44% increase in Budget good? He sure didn't "do nothing" huh.... He was an "over achiever" I guess

Can you actually detail these savings or are you just a parrot?

[guyser]

Milton's about 100,000 people right now. Fastest growing community in Canada. The Province has growth plans for the town that wold see it over 300,000 by 2030. And the Big Move doesn't address that community much at all.

Then that needs to be addressed. (psst, 84,ooo but point made)

The GO stn from there is quite convenient and accessible....during the week that is. That has to change, but then again so do the habits of those who live there.

Kind of a chicken egg thing to be honest.

There needs to be more roads built along with more rapid transit. The one main road in and out is kind of dumb (going south)

I do know of the growth coming thus the need for this entire process to be done.

Edited May 2, 2013 by guyser

[Boges]

Then that needs to be addressed. (psst, 84,ooo but point made)

The GO stn from there is quite convenient and accessible....during the week that is. That has to change, but then again so do the habits of those who live there.

Kind of a chicken egg thing to be honest.

There needs to be more roads built along with more rapid transit. The one main road in and out is kind of dumb (going south)

I do know of the growth coming thus the need for this entire process to be done.

Which goes to my initial point that The Big Move is a big ploy to for the regions to directly subsidize transit improvement in Toronto and urban Peel. I actually heard on the radio that the Liberals are taking another look at the Big Move, perhaps they realize how bad it looks.

You can get around using transit in the 905. But if you're going from one community to another it's not worth your time (if you have a car). Trust me, people who live in the 905 and work downtown have made an important choice. They're probably well compensated to work downtown but prefer to live in a place where they can have some space. It's clearly more important to have a nice house than have a short, stress-free commute. They'll pay a road tolls and until gas is more expensive than Transit they'll choose to drive.

But the people that choose to live AND work in the 905 stand to suffer from these plans, especially when they don't even really contribute to congestion that is making people uncomfortable.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Boges

[guyser]

Which goes to my initial point that The Big Move is a big ploy to for the regions to directly subsidize transit improvement in Toronto and urban Peel.

At this time, the need is to get the 5M people moving around with greater ease. The 84,000 can get a spin off benefit for now, and get the boom addressed via the developers that will invariably come in to build.

You can get around using transit in the 905. But if you're going from one community to another it's not worth your time (if you have a car).

Diffulcult actually.

Trust me, people who live in the 905 and work downtown have made an important choice. They're probably well compensated to work downtown but prefer to live in a place where they can have some space. It's clearly more important to have a nice house than have a short, stress-free commute. They'll pay a road tolls and until gas is more expensive than Transit they'll choose to drive.

They have made their choice, however with that choice has come the gridlock.More transit, more GO , more subways to move these folks around is a winfall for all.

Say you live in Richmond Hill. If it were easier to get from Major Mack and Bathurst to Front St or Bay St,(sans car) then the value of the house will rise.

But the people that choose to live AND work in the 905 stand to suffer from these plans, especially when they don't even really contribute to congestion that is making people uncomfortable.

They do suffer, but in large part because councils cant project the growth nor did they want to spend the money to manage it.

Would it really have been hard to figure out that the intersection of Yonge and Davise Dr would some day soon be a nightmare? Thank you Green Lane, although even in three years I have taken Green Lane its gone nuts.

But go outside those big bdrm communities and look at Durham , Keswick, Sharon et al.....all drivers there. So, lets mopve on this and incorporate a plan that includes them

[Patton74]

So does anybody think this will be the 50 Billion that has been stated?

Can anyone name a government in the last 20 years that can be trusted to oversee such a task?

The Ontario Liberals are so busy spending our money that we do not have and will have to hike taxes for more of our money that we do not have.

The NDP would give contracts to the highest paid union employee's and than raise taxes even more as the businesses leave or go bankrupt.

The PC will not start the "Big Move"

They will complain about it after it is passed and blame it on the last government much like our last Premier did his entire time in office.

We the people of Ontario are the ones that will suffer.

Hudak can not even do the right thing and step down so a new leader can take over due to an election could be anytime.

We are screwed

[margrace]

On a slightly different vein have any of you travelled up to North Bay lately. When you get to Katrine you are in the place with the highest number of bridges in Canada, I believe it is 13 in about a 10 mile ride. One of those bridges I think costs about 10 or so million dollars, that is my estimate because no where can one find any accounting for that high priced highway but I bet it is in the high billions. Proper rapid rail service would have been a lot cheaper.

[guyser]

On a slightly different vein have any of you travelled up to North Bay lately. When you get to Katrine you are in the place with the highest number of bridges in Canada, I believe it is 13 in about a 10 mile ride. One of those bridges I think costs about 10 or so million dollars, that is my estimate because no where can one find any accounting for that high priced highway but I bet it is in the high billions. Proper rapid rail service would have been a lot cheaper.

The accounting should be easy enough, it has to be published and open knowledge.

As for light rail as an alternative , thats a non starter, light rail cannot move all the goods the flow thru that area, trucks being the only way. Perhaps you dont know this but that is the preferred route for ttucks going west.

[Boges]

This makes my heart sing.

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2013/05/09/queens_park_wont_reopen_scarborough_subway_talks.html

When it comes to transit Toronto City Council is clear: It wants subways, subways, subways. But it doesnt want to ask residents to pay for them.

At the end of a muddled, two-day transit debate, councillors handed Premier Kathleen Wynne the hazardous task of imposing new taxes to pay for transit.

Mayor Rob Ford claimed victory following a long series of votes that rejected all but two of more than a dozen taxes and tolls discussed in a city managers report.

A majority of councillors including centrists who fought Ford to have the debate in the first place rejected a gas tax, parking levy, road tolls, payroll tax and vehicle registration tax among other money-raising ideas.

Perhaps this is why Mayor Ford said council shouldn't debate this. It turned into a Gong show. It's nice to nebulously endorse a variety of taxes I MEAN! revenue tools, but when you actually have to put your name next to a specific way you want to ding the public, it becomes a lot harder.

This is why the antics of one, John Tory, irritate me. He hasn't once come out with specific taxes he thinks are workable but keeps beating the drum of revenue tools anyway.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

This makes my heart sing.

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2013/05/09/queens_park_wont_reopen_scarborough_subway_talks.html

Perhaps this is why Mayor Ford said council shouldn't debate this. It turned into a Gong show. It's nice to nebulously endorse a variety of taxes I MEAN! revenue tools, but when you actually have to put your name next to a specific way you want to ding the public, it becomes a lot harder.

This is why the antics of one, John Tory, irritate me. He hasn't once come out with specific taxes he thinks are workable but keeps beating the drum of revenue tools anyway.

What a bunch of cowards. "We want transit, but we don't want to pay for it (politically)." Shameless abdication of responsibility.

BTW your man Ford sure came out looking like a mook. Complained about council not endorsing the Chong report on subways he commissioned, even though said report recommended a number of revenue tools Ford has specifically rejected.