RBC replaces Canadian staff with foreign workers

[eyeball]

There are many different sitations using TFW, here are two examples that I had in mind when I opined that the TFW is a net bennefit to Canadians:

-A new mine is being propsed, potentially creating 1000 jobs. With 800 TFW, the project is feasible and the investment is made, 200 Canadian jobs are created.

-A manufacturing company is bidding on a new contract for product to export to the US. A plant expansion would be required creating 300 new jobs. To quote a competive price 200 TFW are needed, 100 Canadian jobs are created.

Do these examples help you understand my position?

No, not in the least, especially when I compare it to the example of my community and family continually being blown to smithereens as a result of the same economic policy intended to tilt the playing field away from human beings towards corporations.

I don't know if you give a shit about my example or not. On the face of it I just don't think so.

[Bonam]

Isn't there a program today that allows companies to bring in immigrants as sponsored to take jobs in Canada ? How do you determine when you allow the immigrant in and when you don't ?

When it can be demonstrated that 1) there are no Canadians willing and qualified to take the job and 2) the wage offered for the job is no lower than what would be offered to a Canadian for the same type of job.

Those are the conditions my employer had to prove in sponsoring my employment-based green card application to the US, and they (at least in intent, if not in paperwork and implementation) are quite reasonable.

[eyeball]

Maybe canadians aren't applying for those jobs because the incentives to remain unemployed are too high. Who would apply for a job at tim hortons when they are making double on EI? Or can make as much on welfare + selling drugs/counterfeit merchandise/pirated media?

Maybe, but I'm betting you just don't know wtf you're talking about because you think this is all just a big joke and a source of hilarity.

[Michael Hardner]

When it can be demonstrated that 1) there are no Canadians willing and qualified to take the job and 2) the wage offered for the job is no lower than what would be offered to a Canadian for the same type of job.

That's hard to enforce though. They can offer less money and people will still apply. They can simply say that the people aren't qualified, and get immigrants to do it. There are always loopholes. The US limits the number of such Visas to prevent this type of behavior. I'm not sure what happens in Canada.

[Michael Hardner]

Those are the conditions my employer had to prove in sponsoring my employment-based green card application to the US, and they (at least in intent, if not in paperwork and implementation) are quite reasonable.

Wait a second - you are benefiting from the same type of program that you're criticizing here ! You're taking away a job from an American thanks to your temporary requirement ! Not that I care, but if Bush_Cheney were here boy he'd let you have it !

[Canuckistani]

I tend to agree, that our policies are generally sound. And our policies, in fact, prohibit replacing Canadian employees with temporary foreign workers. The banks are using a loophole in these rules to do precisely that. That was the original reason I started the thread, not to rage against outsourcing in general, but to specifically point out this particular practice, which is both unethical and in contradiction to the spirit of Canadian law and policy regarding temporary foreign workers. It is not the government and its policies that I am condemning, but the banks and these particular actions.

But it's not just the banks. We're rubberstamping temp worker applications for all sorts of permament jobs because "no Canadian has applied" They haven't applied because the employer is not paying enough, plain and simple. Funny how basic suppply demand is invoked with prices but not with labor. If people aren't taking the jobs, the wages are supposed to rise instead of flooding the market with cheap foreign labor. We're much better off paying a bit more for our double doubles and having the workers be Canadians who then don't require govt assistance and spend the money they earn in Canada.

[Canuckistani]

Another thought to add to this discussion:

What if they weren't "temporary" workers.

What if RBC simply hired an immigrant to do the work at a much lower wage - what would our take on this be then ?

They would be free to do so legally anyway. And an immigrant is a Canadian - the job stays here as do the benefits. But, if immigration is drivign down wages, we should reduce immigration.

[Canuckistani]

Wages are one of the primary factors in productivity. If you're not competing on wages, you aren't going to have much luck competing on productivity.

So we're doomed to paying third world wages?

[GostHacked]

In some cases yes - a job lost is a job lost. However, in some cases, if a non-Canadian gets the job another Canadian gets a better job. In some cases 1000 Canadians lose their job due to temporary workers, but even more Canadian jobs would have been lost without temporary workers. Perhaps in some cases 100 temporary workers created 50 new jobs for Canadians?

Our relatively low unemployment rate suggests to me that our current policies are in line with our own self-interest.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate

Define relatively low? Compared to what Greece?

[GostHacked]

Looks like RBC is going to do something for those people.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/04/11/rbc-foreign-workers-apology.html

The head of the Royal Bank of Canada has apologized to employees affected by a move to replace Canadian workers with temporary foreign workers, and is promising all will be offered "comparable job opportunities" within the bank.

The first comment says it all.

"To be clear, he's not sorry he took away their jobs, he's sorry that it became a very public embarrassment."

He is also sorry that his bonus would have gone up from temp workers and offshoring.

[CPCFTW]

Maybe, but I'm betting you just don't know wtf you're talking about because you think this is all just a big joke and a source of hilarity.

Um ok? Where did I say it's a joke?

I'm probably far more educated in economics and finance than most people on this message board, especially a fisherman.

I would definitely prefer if a Canadian was employed, but I don't bemoan an impoverished immigrant uprooting himself to earn a living in Canada. If the remedy being considered was to reduce incentives to remaining unemployed, then I'd probably care more.. Unfortunately that solution is politically unpalatable because of our society of pseudo-economists.

Unemployed arts grads are too good for that work, don't you know? Maybe a starbucks barista but not tim hortons!

[carepov]

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate

Define relatively low? Compared to what Greece?

Canada's unemployment rate is low relative to it's historical value:

Also, it is low relative to most comparable countries - especially the USA that traditionally has had a lower rate than Canada's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

[carepov]

No, not in the least, especially when I compare it to the example of my community and family continually being blown to smithereens as a result of the same economic policy intended to tilt the playing field away from human beings towards corporations.

I don't know if you give a shit about my example or not. On the face of it I just don't think so.

I am sorry about your situation. I just think that without TFW there would be more Canadians in similar or worse situations.

[Bonam]

Wait a second - you are benefiting from the same type of program that you're criticizing here ! You're taking away a job from an American thanks to your temporary requirement ! Not that I care, but if Bush_Cheney were here boy he'd let you have it !

Not really, because in my case, my employer legitimately demonstrated that there really were not any Americans with the requisite skills available, and the offered wage was in line with what is generally paid for this type of job.

[Michael Hardner]

Not really, because in my case, my employer legitimately demonstrated that there really were not any Americans with the requisite skills available, and the offered wage was in line with what is generally paid for this type of job.

How did they demonstrate the "really" part ? That may helpful in us stopping people from coming into Canada.

[Argus]

It's kind of a paradox - those who ostensibly dislike foreigners, foreign aid and the UN support heartless policies that do more for foreigners than they know... or would like to know, I suppose.

You are generalizing here.

[Argus]

If you say so. But still: Why is the quality of life of a Canadian more important than the quality of life of a non-Canadian?

Why is the quality of life of your family worth more to you than the quality of life of strangers?

[Argus]

Stopped ?

Absolutely stopped ?

I agree it should be eliminated except for farm labourers. If business foresees a shortage of workers it should follow capitalist practices and offer up more money so that more workers move into that particular area of labour to supply it.

[Argus]

Another thought to add to this discussion:

What if they weren't "temporary" workers.

What if RBC simply hired an immigrant to do the work at a much lower wage - what would our take on this be then ?

For my part, not a lot different. I am opposed to our current system of immigration, as you know, and one of the reasons I'm opposed is because immigration puts downward pressure on wages.

[Michael Hardner]

You are generalizing here.

Well, as I said it's "kind of a paradox". I have found that there are no caricatures, or at least very few. Mostly people have at least somewhat diverse views, but ...

[Argus]

According to the government's own studies there is no great shortage of workers.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/04/11/business-skilled-labour.html

[carepov]

I agree it should be eliminated except for farm labourers. If business foresees a shortage of workers it should follow capitalist practices and offer up more money so that more workers move into that particular area of labour to supply it.

IMO your suggested policy will result in higher unemployment and lower wages in Canada because in many cases business will choose to expand/invest outside of Canada.

The market for most goods and services is global, we should move carefully towards an global market for labour.

[Bonam]

How did they demonstrate the "really" part ? That may helpful in us stopping people from coming into Canada.

By following the procedure that is laid out for doing so. That procedure includes advertising the job publicly in a minimum of 3 different highly visible ways (the acceptable ways are specified), for a minimum of one month, collecting all resumes submitted by applicants, documenting the legitimate reasons why each other applicant does not meet the minimum requirements for the position as specified, submitting said documentation (proof of the job being advertised and no qualified Americans applying) to the government's department of labor, and having them review it and approve it.

Now, this system I'm sure has some loopholes as well, and some companies do game this system. Just saying in my case it was done legitimately as per the intent of the system; my employer is a tiny startup company without a team of lawyers and lobbyists to exploit any system loopholes that may exist.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Bonam

[carepov]

Why is the quality of life of your family worth more to you than the quality of life of strangers?

Of course the quality of life of my family is worth more TO ME than the quality of life of strangers - my family's quality of life is however worth no more than any other family's.

In the TFW program when some Canadians lose jobs (although my opinion is that net Canadian jobs increase) the jobs gained by non-Canadians will be a huge benefit to them and raise the quality of life many more people in their country. Overall humanity's quality of life increases, isn't that a good thing?

[Michael Hardner]

By following the procedure that is laid out for doing so. That procedure includes advertising the job publicly in a minimum of 3 different highly visible ways (the acceptable ways are specified), for a minimum of one month, collecting all resumes submitted by applicants, documenting the legitimate reasons why each other applicant does not meet the minimum requirements for the position as specified, submitting said documentation (proof of the job being advertised and no qualified Americans applying) to the government's department of labor, and having them review it and approve it.

Not commenting on your situation here, but this is highly subjective and seems open to abuse.