North Korea vs U.S. tensions

[Guest Derek L]

I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of it, but it sounds pretty Strangelovian to me. We'd better make sure we don't have a mineshaft gap.

I agree a war with the Soviets would have been near futile in the sense that nobody would likely have won*, but the technology, doctrines and development paths garnered from the Cold War, a potential conflict with a near nuclear peer, can quite easily be applied to the Chinese……..

Added to the fact that the Chinese developed and deployed their limited strategic nuclear deterrent as a check against Soviet hegemony, not American, their forces as is and into the near future would be unable to cope with a US first strike……

*The development, deployment and the threat of development of “Star Wars”, the B-2, Tomahawk (nuclear tipped) cruise missiles, Pershing 2 and threat of a second (effective) retaliatory strike by the USN’s Ohio/Trident combination started prying open the (Pandora’s) box of winnable nuclear war…….If it had of happened in the 80s (or early 90s) there was a possibility of a “United States win”…….What they would have “won” would have enshrined them forever as being “King Shit of Turd Mountain”, but I digress……

[GostHacked]

They could......wouldn't that help to solve the plight of the American "middle class"?

Correct, the middle class now lives on cheap Chinese products.You know the ones that would have been made in America giving American's a living wage....

[Guest Derek L]

Correct, the middle class now lives on cheap Chinese products.You know the ones that would have been made in America giving American's a living wage....

So you would favour war with China on economic security grounds? How would going to war over manufacturing capacity differ from access to natural resources?

[GostHacked]

So you would favour war with China on economic security grounds? How would going to war over manufacturing capacity differ from access to natural resources?

There is no difference, war is war. But war apparently is good for an economy. Just depends on what side you are on. I am also sure the banksters will fund both sides and make a killing (literally) off the war. It's been done before.

[Guest Derek L]

There is no difference, war is war. But war apparently is good for an economy. Just depends on what side you are on. I am also sure the banksters will fund both sides and make a killing (literally) off the war. It's been done before.

So you prefer the current situation over war? Just trying to clarify.

[eyeball]

WWIII would be like no other war before it - most of humanity wiped out. Not some happy economic boom for the "victor." So we'll have more and more proxy wars of one kind or another that keep things contained, I guess. Or we just surrender dominance to the Chinese and make them our new overlords.

We pretty much did that when we let our corporations trade with them. Now we have an emergent fusion of Western corporate sociopaths with Eastern government authoritarians. WTF were we thinking? This will probably make the Borg look like Tribbles.

[Army Guy]

 

We pretty much did that when we let our corporations trade with them. Now we have an emergent fusion of Western corporate sociopaths with Eastern government authoritarians. WTF were we thinking? This will probably make the Borg look like Tribbles.

 

Not sure they had a choice, WE as consumers wanted the products but at a cheaper price....One of the sure fired ways to lower prices was to find cheap labour....Now look at Chinas economy, growing out of control, while ours dwindles, right before our very noses...now we either have to live with it....or force change...

[Canuckistani]

It was corps shooting themselves in the foot. Sure the first ones to outsource made a bundle, but now that everybody does it, the greater profit isnt' there anymore and we're rapidly loosing the middle class consumers who are supposed to buy all that crap.

[GostHacked]

So you prefer the current situation over war? Just trying to clarify.

What do you mean the current situation? Trade wars? Currency wars?

[Army Guy]

 

It was corps shooting themselves in the foot. Sure the first ones to outsource made a bundle, but now that everybody does it, the greater profit isnt' there anymore and we're rapidly loosing the middle class consumers who are supposed to buy all that crap.

 

Yes but it is driven by us the consumer, Yes the corps made a bundle,driven by our quest to save a few dollars....I don't think it is over, i think the big corps and our quest to save, will eventually have everything made in China....We have a large roll to play in this as well....

The question is "Is China to big economically to mess with" , because we would need a large event to change things the way it is going now....because everyone loves the almighty dollar....and is not willing to risk anything or everything in a big change.

[Canuckistani]

China is already becoming too expensive for some manufacturers, so they go elsewhere. The good part about this is that it llifts many third world people out of poverty. The bad part is that it does it on the backs of the Western middle class. The rich, as always, make out like bandits. I think what we're seeing is the formation of a global economic elite, the !% with the top 20% to service them. Their allegiance will be to their class, rather than a country. I could see a world oligarchy arising out of this, with the technology to keep everybody else in serfdom and very hard to dislodge.

[GostHacked]

Yes but it is driven by us the consumer,

No it's driven by corporations wanting to increase their bottom line. Plain and simple.

And the lax environmental and labour laws in other countries.

Edited April 2, 2013 by GostHacked

[Canuckistani]

No it's driven by corporations wanting to increase their bottom line. Plain and simple.

You're both right, since the motive is the same for both. Corps couldn't outsource if consumers had pride in their home products. My understanding is that this is still true in Germany, people will buy domestic and pay more for it. But then the quality is there too, they don'th throw things away after a short time of use. And corps, as always are driven by the bottom line. If selling their grandmother improves it, well who'll give me top dollar for this slightly used old lady. It's the capitalist way.

[eyeball]

   

Not sure they had a choice, WE as consumers wanted the products but at a cheaper price....One of the sure fired ways to lower prices was to find cheap labour....Now look at Chinas economy, growing out of control, while ours dwindles, right before our very noses...

Who's this WE you're talking about? I was calling bullshit on globalization and wheeling and dealing with dictators way back when Chretien was inviting Canadian internet security experts along on his trade junkets to China to assist in Beijing's construction of it's Great Firewall.

Harper as I recall was likewise critical of trade with China but I guess someone got to him. I don't ever recall people calling him a communist and hater of western values which I still get all the time. Funny dat.

...now we either have to live with it....or force change...

If the Canadian Forces are partial to a military solution to the corruption of Ottawa they have my support. At this point I'm willing to try anything.

[Topaz]

No, he didn't go to school in the United States.

You're right but I did hear someone on the news say that when his dad was dying but he did attend school outside of N.K. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-un

[Guest Derek L]

What do you mean the current situation? Trade wars? Currency wars?

What we have today, as is..........A “trade war” launched against China will almost certainly lead to a shooting war……..Do you really think the Chinese would accept a rapid decline in their economy?

[Guest Derek L]

China is already becoming too expensive for some manufacturers, so they go elsewhere. The good part about this is that it llifts many third world people out of poverty. The bad part is that it does it on the backs of the Western middle class. The rich, as always, make out like bandits. I think what we're seeing is the formation of a global economic elite, the !% with the top 20% to service them. Their allegiance will be to their class, rather than a country. I could see a world oligarchy arising out of this, with the technology to keep everybody else in serfdom and very hard to dislodge.

It’s a zero sum game…..Always has been…….So who do we screw over? Our middle class or the third world?

[Guest Derek L]

You're both right, since the motive is the same for both. Corps couldn't outsource if consumers had pride in their home products. My understanding is that this is still true in Germany, people will buy domestic and pay more for it. But then the quality is there too, they don'th throw things away after a short time of use. And corps, as always are driven by the bottom line. If selling their grandmother improves it, well who'll give me top dollar for this slightly used old lady. It's the capitalist way.

Of course the “made in Germany” products are produced by cheap labour from either Eastern Europe or Turkey in Chinese owned factories………

As for “pride” in a domestically produced product, isn’t that another form of protectionism? At the end of the day, money talks and bullshit walks……..If I can drive across the border and purchase cheaper American dairy products like milk and cheese, or buy a pack of tube-socks made in China from the local Costco or Walmart, like millions of Canadians do, what direct benefit to me is it if I fork out more money to get Canadian produced cheese or socks? Is Canadian cheese or socks that much better? I can’t tell the difference……..

[waldo]

As for pride in a domestically produced product, isnt that another form of protectionism? At the end of the day, money talks and bullshit walks.

protectionism? Oh right, you mean like protecting corporate profits by incentivizing the outsourcing of jobs... or by protecting/maximizing shareholder profits by shifting manufacturing abroad at the expense of a lost/diminishing middle class. Your kind of, as you say, 'talk', hey?

[Guest Derek L]

protectionism? Oh right, you mean like protecting corporate profits by incentivizing the outsourcing of jobs... or by protecting/maximizing shareholder profits by shifting manufacturing abroad at the expense of a lost/diminishing middle class. Your kind of, as you say, 'talk', hey?

Pretty much………Like I said above:

So who do we screw over? Our middle class or the third world?

[eyeball]

Who's this we you're talking about?

In any case and if the wealth of the most powerful people in our world is anything to go by I'd say both are being screwed over.

[Guest Derek L]

Who's this we you're talking about?

In any case and if the wealth of the most powerful people in our world is anything to go by I'd say both are being screwed over.

So what do you propose? Force the corporate Oligarchy to leave China for Canada, give (Union) Canadians said manufacturing jobs and require Canadians to purchase Canadian made crap as opposed to Chinese made crap……….So Canadians can pay more for goods crap, all the while we economically poke the Chinese in the eye?

Like I said:

Edited April 2, 2013 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

Hmmm

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/1/showdown-looming-china-mobilizing-troops-jets-near/

Showdown looming: China mobilizing troops, jets near Korea

China has placed military forces on heightened alert in the northeastern part of the country as tensions mount on the Korean peninsula following recent threats by Pyongyang to attack, U.S. officials said.

Reports from the region reveal the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) recently increased its military posture in response to the heightened tensions, specifically North Korea’s declaration of a “state of war” and threats to conduct missile attacks against the United States and South Korea.

According to the officials, the PLA has stepped up military mobilization in the border region with North Korea since mid-March, including troop movements and warplane activity.

China’s navy also conducted live-firing naval drills by warships in the Yellow Sea that were set to end Monday near the Korean peninsula, in apparent support of North Korea, which was angered by ongoing U.S.-South Korean military drills that are set to continue throughout April.

So is this a sign the Chinese are about to put the muzzle on their pit-bull………Or let it off it’s leash?

[eyeball]

So what do you propose?

Extra butter on the popcorn. And I don't mean that microwave crap.

Edited April 3, 2013 by eyeball

[shortlived]

hmm, not much wiggle room left, nuclear program restarted, south korea taken out of the industrial zone somewhat.

I suspect that there really isn't many more actions that can be done to heighten this and there is still about 4 weeks left before the war games end...

none the less, it will be interesting to see if any further escalations happen this week or next.. imo it peaked today.. there is really no where left to go but actual war. Since any border skirmish unless backed down from will esclate it to full blown war. which I would be even more surprised to see.

Oh but the issue now is, the us will use this "threat" to deny north korea any more missile tests... so the game is set that if it continues as is and the US does intercept missile launches NK has lost strategically to its R&D capacities.

the next real event is if the US actually does knock down NK missiles during a missile test...and NK responds by actually attacking the US SK etc..

Edited April 4, 2013 by shortlived