Heading to ward a cashless society

[GostHacked]

A cashless society does not mean anonymous transactions must end.

Anyone who gives someone a store gift card is using anonymous electronic cash.

The person using the card may be anonymous, but not the person who bought it unless they bought it with cash.

[Pliny]

There is no confusion. Gift cards for large stores can be used a medium of exchange. The government could also set up similar system that anyone can 'redeem' at any store connected to the government computers. The result is digital cash that is a completely anonymous.

My point is digital cash and anonymity are not mutually exclusive.

Anonymity is what the government would be attempting to minimize and make mutually exclusive. Although the vast majority of people probably won't care about an electronic credit and debit system and anonymity, there is some inconvenience to it for some transactions that will erode it.

My point was that digital cash is not cash and the whole evolution of "money" once it gets to fiat currencies is only a symbol of itself and no longer holds some of the properties that define "money".

[GostHacked]

Anonymity is what the government would be attempting to minimize and make mutually exclusive. Although the vast majority of people probably won't care about an electronic credit and debit system and anonymity, there is some inconvenience to it for some transactions that will erode it.

My point was that digital cash is not cash and the whole evolution of "money" once it gets to fiat currencies is only a symbol of itself and no longer holds some of the properties that define "money".

There is a new method of digital currency that seems to be gaining some traction. Bitcoin. Listening to Max Keiser who is a huge supporter of this new digital currency is indicating that there is only going to be a certain amount of these digital dollars in circulation.

[Boges]

There is a new method of digital currency that seems to be gaining some traction. Bitcoin. Listening to Max Keiser who is a huge supporter of this new digital currency is indicating that there is only going to be a certain amount of these digital dollars in circulation.

The Wiki Page says people think it's a Ponzi Scheme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin

Is there an app for it?

I still think with Superphone Technology, cash like transfers will be as easy as handing someone else a dollar bill.

[GostHacked]

The Wiki Page says people think it's a Ponzi Scheme.

Currently that is what Max calls the rest of the global monetary and financial markets, ponzi schemes.

[GostHacked]

Here is a method proposed for digital currency and such ...

http://myomne.com/the-card/

Not sure if I want all my cards in one digital basket of eggs. Friend works at a high tech place in Cali and this was one of the customers her company is helping develop.....

[TimG]

The person using the card may be anonymous, but not the person who bought it unless they bought it with cash.

The same is true of hard cash today. The stores need to get it from banks and deposit it back but they have no idea how many hands the current went through in the meantime. Anonymous digital currency could be stored on a 'gift card' and passed around like cash today. The only thing that is required is a terminal that can check the balance for the transaction to occur.

[Boges]

The same is true of hard cash today. The stores need to get it from banks and deposit it back but they have no idea how many hands the current went through in the meantime. Anonymous digital currency could be stored on a 'gift card' and passed around like cash today. The only thing that is required is a terminal that can check the balance for the transaction to occur.

Or you could just use a pre-paid Visa like a normal person.

But I get what you're saying. Someone has to withdraw the cash from a bank initially and that transaction would be recorded.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Boges

[BC_chick]

Initially the example was given about friends giving each other money. Lets say, in this society of zero cash, Someone needed help moving or painting a room and he paid his friend $20 or so for his trouble through a cheque or a futuristic NFC Cash transfer. It would suck if the CRA chimed in to the friend that got the $20 and said where's my cut?

It's not income. It wouldn't happen.

[BC_chick]

Reading this thread reminds me of a Chris Rock joke about shutting down ATM's after certain hours. "Have you EVER taken out $300 at 4am for somehting POSITIVE?".

As for a cashless society, we're practically there. The banks make loads of money off each transaction and sell away our spending habits to marketing firms and make even more money. Of course they will continue innovating ways to expand on the trend.

In return, we don't have to run to the ATM (or gasp, a teller) and debit/credit cards are everywhere and the price of using them is declining. Both parties gain, really.

Businesses have to hand over a percentage of their revenue but in most cases the costs are reflected in the markups and shared between the business and the consumer (both of whom are gaining an advantage for the convenience).

In the end there really aren't too many naysayers.

The black market, nothwithstanding, but they will just find new ways to get around things as they always have.

Something else might replace money as a medium of exchange, but (an-almost) cashless society isn't really too far into the distant future. We're pretty much there now.

[GostHacked]

Reading this thread reminds me of a Chris Rock joke about shutting down ATM's after certain hours. "Have you EVER taken out $300 at 4am for somehting POSITIVE?".

As for a cashless society, we're practically there. The banks make loads of money off each transaction and sell away our spending habits to marketing firms and make even more money. Of course they will continue innovating ways to expand on the trend.

In return, we don't have to run to the ATM (or gasp, a teller) and debit/credit cards are everywhere and the price of using them is declining. Both parties gain, really.

Since we are charged on most debit/credit transactions, hailed as a 'convenience fee' there is no benefit to me. Convenience is about the banks able to make money on cashless transactions. If you do not use your banks ATM, you are going to be charged a fee for using it. Unless you pay your bank a flat fee per moneht for unlimited transactions, but in the end you are paying for convenience. Essentially 'nickle and dimeing' you to death.

Businesses have to hand over a percentage of their revenue but in most cases the costs are reflected in the markups and shared between the business and the consumer (both of whom are gaining an advantage for the convenience).

So the bank makes money from a debit transaction, and the store has to pay the bank for the same transaction.

In the end there really aren't too many naysayers.

There are a lot of naysayers. I hear it quite often.

The black market, nothwithstanding, but they will just find new ways to get around things as they always have.

And we still cannot hold our own governments accountable for their handing of a country's funds.

Something else might replace money as a medium of exchange, but (an-almost) cashless society isn't really too far into the distant future. We're pretty much there now.

Gonna be fun in an emergency.

[Boges]

Since we are charged on most debit/credit transactions, hailed as a 'convenience fee' there is no benefit to me. Convenience is about the banks able to make money on cashless transactions. If you do not use your banks ATM, you are going to be charged a fee for using it. Unless you pay your bank a flat fee per moneht for unlimited transactions, but in the end you are paying for convenience. Essentially 'nickle and dimeing' you to death.So the bank makes money from a debit transaction, and the store has to pay the bank for the same transaction. There are a lot of naysayers. I hear it quite often.And we still cannot hold our own governments accountable for their handing of a country's funds. Gonna be fun in an emergency.

People who allow themselves to get dinged with banking fees just aren't wise consumers. The banks charge you fees for withdrawing money too, they also charge you for bills you pay and direct deposits from your employer. Unless you're planning to go "Till Debt do us Part" and withdraw cash once a week and budget to only spend that money all week then you're going get lots of banking fees.

Then again there are things you can do to minimize the fees you pay. I have a grandfathered chequing account that allows me to have unlimited transactions as long as I keep a minimum balance. But even so I use a credit card for most transactions so I only have to make 2 transactions a month to pay the 2 credit cards I have.

Many banks have flat rates for banking fees as well so you may have to spend $10 a month for unlimited transactions but that may save you money if up make lots of them. I get credited $15-20 a month due to my minimum balance in banking fees. Failing that you can use ING or President's Choice for your daily banking. They don't charge banking fees but they aren't as convenient as the Big 4 banks.

People who bitch about banking fees are the same people who bitch about Credit Card interest rates. They aren't intelligent enough to know that keeping a balance on Credit Cards is simply idiotic and not keeping track of your transactions without a plan with your bank is equally idiotic.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Boges

[bush_cheney2004]

...People who bitch about banking fees are the same people who bitch about Credit Card interest rates. They aren't intelligent enough to know that keeping a balance on Credit Cards is simply idiotic and not keeping track of your transactions without a plan with your bank is equally idiotic.

Perhaps, but I can see the other side of this anytime I make an ATM withdrawal. You can see indirect evidence of their struggles based on the discarded or abandoned transaction receipts left with account balances in or near the teller machine. Some of these poor souls are trying to navigate life with account balances that teeter well below $100....on a good day ! Use to be that one could play the float with checks, but that is no longer the case with fees and technology debiting accounts instantly.

Poor people and banks are a bad combination.

Edited March 13, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Boges]

Perhaps, but I can see the other side of this anytime I make an ATM withdrawal. You can see indirect evidence of their struggles based on the discarded or abandoned transaction receipts left with account balances in or near the teller machine. Some of these poor souls are trying to navigate life with account balances that teeter well below $100....on a good day ! Use to be that one could play the float with checks, but that is no longer the case with fees and technology debiting accounts instantly.

Poor people and banks are a bad combination.

My bank takes all the fees out at the end of the month so it's sort of like just another bill.

Banks aren't very easy on poor people ever. Poor people could always go to a Payday loan place to avoid fees, but they'll have to pay a massive commission.

[GostHacked]

My bank takes all the fees out at the end of the month so it's sort of like just another bill.

Banks aren't very easy on poor people ever. Poor people could always go to a Payday loan place to avoid fees, but they'll have to pay a massive commission.

I used a place like PayDay once .... never again. I was in a pinch, but that pinch would end up being like the jaws of death if one continues using them.

There are more poor than rich, so I am wondering who the banks make the most money off of.

[Pliny]

There are more poor than rich, so I am wondering who the banks make the most money off of.

The rich, of course, if only for them keeping their deposits there. Don't forget the banks can make loans based upon their reserves. Deposit $100,000 they make loans worth over a million.

[GostHacked]

The rich, of course, if only for them keeping their deposits there. Don't forget the banks can make loans based upon their reserves. Deposit $100,000 they make loans worth over a million.

You know about fractional reserve banking right? Meaning they have no reserves, because they lent out more money than they actually have. Another reason they want to push the electronic money, so they don't have to worry about bank runs I guess.

[BC_chick]

I used a place like PayDay once .... never again. I was in a pinch, but that pinch would end up being like the jaws of death if one continues using them.

There are more poor than rich, so I am wondering who the banks make the most money off of.

I disagree. Even in my poor starving student days I always paid my credit-cards on time and figured out the best bank account that suited my needs. Banks make money off mortgage interest rates and irresponsible credit-card holders.

Trasaction fees hardly play a major role. You can be dirt poor and fiscally responsible and you can avoid most bank fees.

[Pliny]

You know about fractional reserve banking right? Meaning they have no reserves, because they lent out more money than they actually have. Another reason they want to push the electronic money, so they don't have to worry about bank runs I guess.

It doesn't mean they have no reserves. They have to have some and that ratio of reserves/loans is set by the central bank.

The central bank was supposed to end bank runs on member banks but yes, electronic money that is simply an entry on a

ledger makes it unlikely there would ever be a bank run.

[GostHacked]

Pliny, on 15 Mar 2013 - 00:39, said:

It doesn't mean they have no reserves. They have to have some and that ratio of reserves/loans is set by the central bank.

The central bank was supposed to end bank runs on member banks but yes, electronic money that is simply an entry on a

ledger makes it unlikely there would ever be a bank run.

Yes it is an electronic ledger, this is how they can avoid bank runs, but still does not remedy the issue of what fractional reserve banking is. So if it is simply an entry in a log, then yes they really have no reserves.

[Pliny]

Yes it is an electronic ledger, this is how they can avoid bank runs, but still does not remedy the issue of what fractional reserve banking is. So if it is simply an entry in a log, then yes they really have no reserves.

There is still some demand for actual "cash", fiat money, pocket money. That is the only reason there is a requirement for a "reserve". The fractional reserve ratio is about 2% right now that banks have to have on hand. I guess they are changing that in Sweden where banks are no longer required to have any cash on hand.

[Pliny]

There seems to be a little bit of a currency war going on where Russia and China along with Iran are flexing some economic muscle and wish to erode the dominance of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency.

Personally, I think this is why a cashless society looks inviting to the current trustees of the global economic structure. It is, in their view, a means to maintain the power structure and not decentralize power by returning to a commodity based monetary system.

[Topaz]

One could save a little money by using the Debt card over cash, now that the Feds are getting rid of the penny.

[RNG]

One could save a little money by using the Debt card over cash, now that the Feds are getting rid of the penny.

Perhaps showing how I go out of my way to find things to do since I retired, I have been keeping track since the penny disappeared. I have stayed in the range between being three cents down and two cents up since it happened, and I always use cash for anything less than $20. There is one dollar store in our neighborhood that was rounding everything up but the little old ladies in our area (we have 3 assisted living facilities in walking distance) complained to some government agency and he got a nasty-gram and has been playing by the rules since.

[The_Squid]

There is one dollar store in our neighborhood that was rounding everything up but the little old ladies in our area (we have 3 assisted living facilities in walking distance) complained to some government agency and he got a nasty-gram and has been playing by the rules since.

The gov't doesn't have a say in pricing or how a business conducts the rounding off. They only suggested guidelines. It is more likely that the dollar store listened to the cheapskate old ladies' complaints and changed policy.