Thanks Sun News for bringing us Manning Conference

[Pliny]

Just listened to inspirational talk by Ron Paul on economics, liberty, government intervention and the fact we are at the end of the line with the current economic structure.

Let's face it, government and the whole economic structure are at a crossroads. What we've

tolerated, and even demanded, from government is not sustainable. Government has spent its way to bankruptcy. Of course, who gets hurt most when the government goes broke? Those dependent upon it.

So watch out accountants and lawyers.

[waldo]

your thread title emphasis dwarfs your OP libertarian focus/bent... but good to know that both Brian Lilley and Ezrant are speakers at the conference!

[Wayward Son]

Damn...I missed learning about economics from a medical doctor and a couple journalists.

[Michael Hardner]

Let's face it, government and the whole economic structure are at a crossroads. What we've

tolerated, and even demanded, from government is not sustainable. Government has spent its way to bankruptcy. Of course, who gets hurt most when the government goes broke? Those dependent upon it.

So watch out accountants and lawyers.

What is not sustainable is mismanagement and unmitigated growth of government. The fact of the matter is we have more time, intelligence, and money to deal with common problems than ever before. However, government rarely if ever moves on from a problem as the political will is not there. As a result, we only ever deal with draconian changes in times of crisis.

Canadians either have to get deeply involved in reduction of services, or they have to let the experts work it out.

What is NOT happening, though, is the elimination of healthcare, social spending, education because "WE CAN'T AFFORD IT ANYMORE'. We can afford it, and in fact abandoning those things negates the fact that we became rich because we approach large issues such as those together, as a group.

One might think that the Liberals - being middle of the pack - may be best poised to broker 3rd party deals, however they spent the 90s as the party of stasis and are now pining for a young heartthrob with an empty head to lead them out of the wilderness.

No, it will be a coalition of red Tories and hard-headed blue NDPers who are our best hope, IMO.

[Pliny]

What is not sustainable is mismanagement and unmitigated growth of government. The fact of the matter is we have more time, intelligence, and money to deal with common problems than ever before. However, government rarely if ever moves on from a problem as the political will is not there. As a result, we only ever deal with draconian changes in times of crisis.

Canadians either have to get deeply involved in reduction of services, or they have to let the experts work it out.

What is NOT happening, though, is the elimination of healthcare, social spending, education because "WE CAN'T AFFORD IT ANYMORE'. We can afford it, and in fact abandoning those things negates the fact that we became rich because we approach large issues such as those together, as a group.

One might think that the Liberals - being middle of the pack - may be best poised to broker 3rd party deals, however they spent the 90s as the party of stasis and are now pining for a young heartthrob with an empty head to lead them out of the wilderness.

No, it will be a coalition of red Tories and hard-headed blue NDPers who are our best hope, IMO.

Your first sentence caught me off-guard. Your last sentence set me straight. You're still Michael Hardner.

[RNG]

The fact is keep spending money you don't have leads to Cypress via Greece.

I visit a US dominated political forum and about 95% those people are in total denial. We seem to be only about 75%.

The government can't be all things to all people. Yes, there are tons of worthy causes out there, but they can't all be funded.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

The fact is keep spending money you don't have leads to Cypress via Greece.

I visit a US dominated political forum and about 95% those people are in total denial. We seem to be only about 75%.

The government can't be all things to all people. Yes, there are tons of worthy causes out there, but they can't all be funded.

I just want to point out that ALL MONEY is money that technically doesn't exist, and there will NEVER be enough money in the world to pay the debt that our current ponzi scheme has created.

The right wing politics are simply trying to push the blame on entitlement, rather than the reality of our system.

U.S. Example.

U.S. Federal Reserve prints (Digitally Adds) new money out of thin air and "buys" Bonds from U.S. Government.

What's wrong with this picture?

U.S. FR creates 10 Billion

U.S. Government sells $10 Billion in Bonds to FR.

... Bonds that require INTEREST PAYMENTS.

$10 Billion principal can't even repay $10 Billion + $1 in interest.... let alone $10 Billion + Millions.

This system was made to crash... the money movers are playing the blame game now.

This is a ponzi scheme.... without infinite growth to cover ever increasing debt payments.... it will collapse.

[Michael Hardner]

What reasons do we have to think that the economy will grow indefinitely ?

Well - other than the fact that it always has ?

The term 'ponzi' gets thrown around too much, IMO. The fact is that we are richer than ever, despite the fears stoked by the disaster industry. Imagine how much more helpful it would be if we knew who actually needed money, and who had more to give ?

The idea is means testing - but not just for welfare and government cheque cashers, also for those who get endless tax breaks and taxpayer gifts to just exist, or worse to send their money offshore.

Maybe we should make a law that the government gets a peak at everybody's bank account and uses that information to revisit their policies ?

[bush_cheney2004]

I just want to point out that ALL MONEY is money that technically doesn't exist, and there will NEVER be enough money in the world to pay the debt that our current ponzi scheme has created.

This is false....as MONEY is much more than fiat currency or digital trickery. Some MONEY is actually real, and accepted as a medium of exchange. In prisons, for instance, MONEY can be cigarettes or drugs.

The right wing politics are simply trying to push the blame on entitlement, rather than the reality of our system.

U.S. Example.....

Of course.....there are no others.

...This is a ponzi scheme.... without infinite growth to cover ever increasing debt payments.... it will collapse.

No, it's not a "Ponzi scheme", as such a scheme has defined attributes not met by your example.

[RNG]

I just want to point out that ALL MONEY is money that technically doesn't exist, and there will NEVER be enough money in the world to pay the debt that our current ponzi scheme has created.

Not true. As wealth is created money can safely be added to the system. When oil is produced, iron mined, cars built, and so on, money can be "created". But there needs to be a balance or eventually the money will become worthless. Take Germany after WWII or Zimbabwe not so long ago. Money supply and interest rates are the governments tools to keep the economy in balance and it is often a difficult job.

Edited March 20, 2013 by RNG

[eyeball]

What reasons do we have to think that the economy will grow indefinitely ?

Faith, given we only have one little planet to our credit.

I suppose that could change but probably not in time to matter much to us.

[Michael Hardner]

I suppose that could change but probably not in time to matter much to us.

This century will see a lot of changes - positive, and negative. Some of the issues that will have to be addressed are the use of limited resources, and destruction of our environment. On the plus side, awareness increases all the time, and our population increases are slowing too.

[eyeball]

There's a dark & a troubled side of life
There's a bright, there's a sunny side, too
Tho' we meet with the darkness and strife
The sunny side we also may view

Keep on the sunny side, always on the sunny side,
Keep on the sunny side of life
It will help us ev'ry day, it will brighten all the way
If we'll keep on the sunny side of life

The storm and its fury broke today,
Crushing hopes that we cherish so dear;
Clouds and storms will, in time, pass away
The sun again will shine bright and clear.
Let us greet with the song of hope each day
Tho' the moment be cloudy or fair
Let us trust in our Saviour away
Who keepeth everyone in His care

[MiddleClassCentrist]

What reasons do we have to think that the economy will grow indefinitely ?

Well - other than the fact that it always has ?

The term 'ponzi' gets thrown around too much, IMO. The fact is that we are richer than ever, despite the fears stoked by the disaster industry. Imagine how much more helpful it would be if we knew who actually needed money, and who had more to give ?

The idea is means testing - but not just for welfare and government cheque cashers, also for those who get endless tax breaks and taxpayer gifts to just exist, or worse to send their money offshore.

Maybe we should make a law that the government gets a peak at everybody's bank account and uses that information to revisit their policies ?

The only thing that has driven our wealth this last century is SCIENCE. It's not that we are "wealthier", it's that technology and invention have improved our lives. In fact, if you look at our wages that have stagnated for years vs inflation, we are actually technically poorer but... able to afford more stuff as technology improved.

If our conservatives were really about competition and innovation they would be investing like crazy in grassroots business and cutting subsidies/tax breaks to large and healthy businesses. But, that is not in favour of our current corporatocracy who has the government in their back pocket.

Just look at the history of the legislation the conservatives have passed in the last few years... it's not for Canadian citizens. It's for corporations, regardless of national origin.

• Legislation that allows the import of foreign workers at discount putting downward pressure on Canadian wages -> pro corporations at the expense of citizens.
• Legislation that takes away environmental oversight -> pro corporations at the expense of citizens.
• Legislation that cripples scientific review ->pro corporations.
• Legislation that reduces corporate taxes ->pro corporations.
• Legislation that reduces OAS -> doesn't help citizens.
• Legislation that allows internet spying without warrant -> loss of citizen privacy, can be used (as shown repeatedly and Vic Toews didn't even know) for unscrupulous monitoring ... potentially for MPAA.
• Legislation that destroys digital rights of citizens so they can't transfer licenses or backup material they purchased ->pro corporations at the expense of citizens.

That's just under Harper. Over the last few decades, our government has been increasingly abused for corporate gain at the expense of citizens, regardless of who is in power... I tire of it.

The corporatocracy/wealthy elite are doing the best they can to misinform the public as to the true nature of wealth division using the media that the own to do so. Pro union news? No way. Unions are the last piece of hope that citizens have at maintaining some power in over their government... because unions have money to wage a public relations war informing the public of worker interests. Unions are what created the middle class, and they are being whittled away.

This video talks about information from polling Americans (both Democrat and Republican alike). It's interesting to see their ideal, what they think our current distribution is, and the reality. I'm only adding it as a piece of interest.

[bush_cheney2004]

...This video talks about information from polling Americans (both Democrat and Republican alike). It's interesting to see their ideal, what they think our current distribution is, and the reality. I'm only adding it as a piece of interest.

Nice American video....not sure what it has to do with your Canadian rant....but still nice.

[Pliny]

This is a ponzi scheme.... without infinite growth to cover ever increasing debt payments.... it will collapse.

It is definitely fraud but not a ponzi scheme.

[Pliny]

Damn...I missed learning about economics from a medical doctor and a couple journalists.

Too bad.