IS GOD A DELUSION? The Debate That Never Was

[Pliny]

Mighty AC, on 06 Mar 2013 - 06:58, said:

Wouldn't it be nice if the 'I believe it, therefor it is true' logic actually worked? Alas, I've been believing that I can play guitar like Jeff Martin really hard for quite sometime now and I can still only play a few chords.

It's because the truth to you is that you cannot play guitar like Jeff Martin. You believe you would have to go through

the whole process of learning or.....you could believe you are an idiot savant and skirt the process but it is hard to

leave behind what you know for sure...which boils down to the fact you can't play guitar like Jeff Martin just yet.

[Mighty AC]

The background radiation from the Big bang has been measured. Science understands the process down to the final split second...ie the Planck epoch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CMB_Timeline300_no_WMAP.jpg

You have to have faith to deny what science has already found. You have to have faith to believe the Earth is only a few thousand years old rather than what what the rocks tell us. You have to have faith to believe there were no dinosaurs or anything else not described by Adam. You have to have faith that evolution is impossible while treating yourself for this year's flu virus and petting your pedigree pooch. Too much faith...

Ah yes, but the matter requires a creator. A timeless, infinite, creatorless creator. That's the only logical conclusion. I've calculated the odds and a creatorless creator is 10^40000000 times more likely to be considered palatable by children seeking answers than saying 'we don't yet know.' Throw in the fact that if you believe something really hard it becomes true and voila, we have the answer. Now let's forget this science BS and proceed with our chanting. the night time is the right time...the night time is the right time....the night time is the right time...down with women and gays....the night time is the right time...

[DogOnPorch]

Ah yes, but the matter requires a creator. A timeless, infinite, creatorless creator. That's the only logical conclusion. I've calculated the odds and a creatorless creator is 10^40000000 times more likely to be considered palatable by children seeking answers than saying 'we don't yet know.' Throw in the fact that if you believe something really hard it becomes true and voila, we have the answer. Now let's forget this science BS and proceed with our chanting. the night time is the right time...the night time is the right time....the night time is the right time...down with women and gays....the night time is the right time...

It's religion's only true role...answers for those that want all the answers now. Then one can shut off the brain to save power. When I was young, though, I had the complete set of Time/Life books on science and nature as understood in the 1960s. Changed my life. I had answers that didn't involve stuffing a T-Rex into a wooden boat loaded with prey then claiming it must have fallen overboard into the non-plesiosaur infested waters.

[Mighty AC]

It's because the truth to you is that you cannot play guitar like Jeff Martin. You believe you would have to go through

the whole process of learning or.....you could believe you are an idiot savant and skirt the process but it is hard to

leave behind what you know for sure...which boils down to the fact you can't play guitar like Jeff Martin just yet.

I've got the idiot down, now I'm just waiting for the savant to arrive. As it turns out I have just used science to prove that I can play like Jeff Martin. 90% of the mass in our bodies comes from elements fused in stars, hence we are stardust. I am a star, Jeff Martin is a rock star, hence through the power of faith I am now a guitar virtuoso. Bam! Get me Liz Sandals on the phone it is about damn time that 'I believe it, therefor it is true' is part of the science curriculum.

[Pliny]

I've got the idiot down, now I'm just waiting for the savant to arrive. As it turns out I have just used science to prove that I can play like Jeff Martin. 90% of the mass in our bodies comes from elements fused in stars, hence we are stardust. I am a star, Jeff Martin is a rock star, hence through the power of faith I am now a guitar virtuoso. Bam! Get me Liz Sandals on the phone it is about damn time that 'I believe it, therefor it is true' is part of the science curriculum.

Gosh! It's so difficult for someone to abandon all they know to be true. I'm really surprised you've been able to do that, especially proving it with science.

What label are you going to sign with?

[DogOnPorch]

Gosh! It's so difficult for someone to abandon all they know to be true. I'm really surprised you've been able to do that, especially proving it with science.

What label are you going to sign with?

God is a concept

By which we measure

Our pain

I'll say it again

God is a concept

By which we measure

Our pain

I don't believe in magic

I don't believe in I-Ching

I don't believe in Bible

I don't believe in tarot

I don't believe in Hitler

I don't believe in Jesus

I don't believe in Kennedy

I don't believe in Buddha

I don't believe in mantra

I don't believe in Gita

I don't believe in yoga

I don't believe in kings

I don't believe in Elvis

I don't believe in Zimmerman

I don't believe in Beatles

I just believe in me

Yoko and me

And that's reality

The dream is over

What can I say?

The dream is over

Yesterday

I was the dream weaver

But now I'm reborn

I was the Walrus

But now I'm John

And so dear friends

You just have to carry on

The dream is over

[Mighty AC]

What a great song...what a great artist!

[Sleipnir]

Me think that those who say there has to be creator(s) are the ones who do not understand the topic they're delving in. Kind of like an excuse to bypass the process of learning and understanding.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Sleipnir

[kimmy]

Well, a rock does not have self-awareness. Does electricity? Is a chemical reaction aware of its transmogrification?

It's funny that a person would think of himself as a brain and think the brain could be aware of itself. Are you aware

of thought? I think therefore I am. Did Descartes think he was thought?

If he had said "I eat therefore I am", would you think he was claiming to be food?

He was aware of thought obviously and maybe thought that's what he was. Perhaps we are just awareness?

No, that's really not implied at all by Descarte's famous argument. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

So the point is it seems quite a task to tell yourself you are not aware of self and trying to prove to yourself you are a something that is aware. Does death of the body bring an end to self-awareness?

That I'm aware is the only thing I can be completely sure of. Does the death of body mean an end to self-awareness? I can't be sure, but that's the theory I'm going with. They can hook up electrodes to your head and see activity of your neurons when you're listening to music or solving a problem or watching a video. I don't see a good reason to think that awareness would continue when those neurons are dead.

-k

[Pliny]

kimmy, on 06 Mar 2013 - 19:04, said:

If he had said "I eat therefore I am", would you think he was claiming to be food?

If they thought they were a body and food kept them alive then they might say that but I would think they think of

themselves existing as a body.

Quote

No, that's really not implied at all by Descarte's famous argument. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

It proved to him that he existed. So did he think he was thought? He didn't think he was a body. He didn't say I am a

human being therefore I am. Or did he think, from the article and as I do, that he was that which is aware of thought?

Quote

That I'm aware is the only thing I can be completely sure of.

Plus you are aware that you are aware.

Quote

Does the death of body mean an end to self-awareness? I can't be sure, but that's the theory I'm going with. They can hook up electrodes to your head and see activity of your neurons when you're listening to music or solving a problem or watching a video. I don't see a good reason to think that awareness would continue when those neurons are dead.

-k

So basically, neurons supply awareness, they take the perceptions and then digitize them into some electro-chemical codefor...what... their own use? But we are talking about you having self-awareness. What are you aware you are? You are

not aware that you are a neuron, I don't think. Even someone telling you you were a neuron does not make you aware that you are a neuron - that is to say that a neuron is aware of itself. It obviously isn't any moreso than any other piece

of matter.

[DogOnPorch]

Oldest known star. A Pop II star as of yet not properly unclassified. Some 13+ billion years old. Ours is perhaps 5.5 billion years old. This particular star is only 190 light years or so away.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2262091/A-glimpse-universe-soon-Big-Bang-astronomers-identify-star-dated-13-2-billion-years-old.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_140283

[betsy]

God is a concept

By which we measure

Our pain

I'll say it again

God is a concept

By which we measure

Our pain

I don't believe in magic

I don't believe in I-Ching

I don't believe in Bible

I don't believe in tarot

I don't believe in Hitler

I don't believe in Jesus

I don't believe in Kennedy

I don't believe in Buddha

I don't believe in mantra

I don't believe in Gita

I don't believe in yoga

I don't believe in kings

I don't believe in Elvis

I don't believe in Zimmerman

I don't believe in Beatles

I just believe in me

Yoko and me

And that's reality

The dream is over

What can I say?

The dream is over

Yesterday

I was the dream weaver

But now I'm reborn

I was the Walrus

But now I'm John

And so dear friends

You just have to carry on

The dream is over

That's why I'm so against recreational drugs. They do fry the brains.

[DogOnPorch]

That's why I'm so against recreational drugs. They do fry the brains.

So John Lennon was an idiot?

Edited March 7, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

That's why I'm so against recreational drugs. They do fry the brains.

You'll want to toss out about 80% of your music then. Don't bother listening to my stuff either.

[betsy]

So John Lennon was an idiot?

The lyrics doesn't make any sense. I did find it funny. Never heard of that song actually until now...

John and Yoko were saved from heroin addiction by greedy drug dealer

By PAUL REVOIR

Last updated at 09:26 11 June 2007

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-461071/John-Yoko-saved-heroin-addiction-greedy-drug-dealer.html#ixzz2MtIrH9Kq

This Is Your Brain on Drugs

The second PSA, from 1998, featured 18-year-old actress Rachael Leigh Cook, who, as before, holds up an egg and says, "this is your brain", before lifting up a frying pan with the words, "this is heroin", after which she places the egg on a kitchen counter — "this is what happens to your brain after snorting heroin" — and slams the pan down on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Your_Brain_on_Drugs Edited March 7, 2013 by betsy

[betsy]

And you have no clue how it came about, either. Just faith that a Bronze Age myth is correct.

We have no clue? I guess you didn't watch the video.

[betsy]

Oldest known star. A Pop II star as of yet not properly unclassified. Some 13+ billion years old. Ours is perhaps 5.5 billion years old. This particular star is only 190 light years or so away.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2262091/A-glimpse-universe-soon-Big-Bang-astronomers-identify-star-dated-13-2-billion-years-old.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_140283

And?

[DogOnPorch]

And?

In order for our star to be born...a Population I, metal rich G2V variety with a maximum life of about 10-11 billion years...one or more older Population II super-giant stars...probably a class M5Ia (metal poor red super-giant) or the like with a lifetime measured in 10s-100s of million years...had to explode in a supernova. This...

a] created abundant amounts of elements heavier than Lithium.

b] created one or more density waves that began the compression of a "near-by" cloud of interstellar dust and gas.

These two things allowed the birth of our star some 4.5 billion years ago. Our planet formed from the leftovers.

HD 140283 is an example of the earlier Milky Way...a metal poor Population II M5IV red sub-giant with an age 3x that of our star. Like many Main Sequence M class stars...ie: not super-giants, it spends its hydrogen fuel extremely efficiently allowing it such a very, very long life span...more or less unlimited...running into the trillions of years of possible life. Our star has no such luck. The Sun has about 6 billion years left on the Main Sequence...but, that's the price for a warmer star.

Now...these things are known. We know how stars form. How they work. How they die.

So...do you take Genesis as how it all really started? The Earth formed before the stars, etc? Or even more extreme...do you believe it happened in 6 days some 6-7,000 years ago? This I need to know from you so as not to needlessly harp on things like dinosaurs and charnia, etc. Do you accept science's version of our Solar System's birth and early life? Continental drift...dinosaurs...early humanoids, etc etc?? Is God a watchmaker to you? Wind-up the Universe...evolution and all...and let 'er go? Can you explain your religion's version of Genesis in detail?*

* Your words and understanding, if you could, please.

Edited March 8, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

We have no clue? I guess you didn't watch the video.

He has no clue, either.

[DogOnPorch]

'God' by John Lennon is quite famous and is from 1970. John, as I'm sure you know, tried different religions over his lifetime.

[WWWTT]

That's why I'm so against recreational drugs. They do fry the brains.

I think this is more like poetry and lyrics.

To say it is due to drug use is reasonable.

But keep in mind,many people claiming holy miracles have been accused of drug use as well.

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

That's why I'm so against recreational drugs. They do fry the brains.

Who needs drugs when you've got God?

[Pliny]

In any respect, an eyeball is not aware it is an eyeball, a brain is not aware it is a brain, a thought is not aware it is a thought, awareness is the only thing that is aware it is aware.

You might consider yourself to be aware you are a human being and consider yourself a body but your body isn't aware of the fact it is a body. The question then is, who or what is aware of being a human being? Only that which is self-aware. You are not the thing you are aware of you are the thing that is aware.

[betsy]

'God' by John Lennon is quite famous and is from 1970. John, as I'm sure you know, tried different religions over his lifetime.

So he must've tried different religions......and? That doesn't mean anything.

Is that the title of that song? God?

Funny how from that first thought about God....his thoughts went on to magic, then sailed through Hitler, and on to Jesus, Kennedy and alighted on Elvis, and floated towards the Beatles, and who knows what was rattling in his head when he thought about the Walrus.....and perhaps reminisced about the Beatles' Yesterday.......and so on...and at yes, he acknowledged he's a dream-weaver (which was at least consistent with his daydreaming, Imagine).....and then he nicely settled on himself and Yoko.

That song titled, God, is nothing more but a love song celebrating his relationship with Yoko. Whether it was intentional, or accidental, that's another story.

You try to put too much to the introductory ramblings of John....like as if it's something profound.

Edited March 10, 2013 by betsy

[g_bambino]

So he must've tried different religions...

Have you tried any of the different versions of Christianity?