Pope quits

The_Squid · February 11, 2013

The reports I have read fall short of finding proof that he personally covered things up.

I disagree... he knew first hand of these things... he chose to cover up and protect the church and allow these pedophiles to continue God's work...

The internal correspondence from bishops in Wisconsin directly to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, shows that while church officials tussled over whether the priest should be dismissed, their highest priority was protecting the church from scandal.

Michael Hardner · February 11, 2013

I disagree... he knew first hand of these things... he chose to cover up and protect the church and allow these pedophiles to continue God's work...

How do you know he knew first hand and he chose to cover up ? I haven't found a source that makes a verified claim.

There's this from the Slate.com article:

It is, of course, claimed, and it will no doubt later be partially un-claimed, that Ratzinger himself knew nothing of this second outrage. I quote, here, from the Rev. Thomas Doyle, a former employee of the Vatican Embassy in Washington and an early critic of the Catholic Church's sloth in responding to child-rape allegations. "Nonsense," he says. "Pope Benedict is a micromanager. He's the old style. Anything like that would necessarily have been brought to his attention. Tell the vicar general to find a better line. What he's trying to do, obviously, is protect the pope."

cybercoma · February 11, 2013

I'm denying that Hitchens is an objective source where religion is concerned.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

jacee · February 11, 2013

To say he's responsible and to say he covered things up are different accusations. The former accusation can accurately be stated if Benedict was in charge of investigating claims and missed cases of abuse. You can make that accusation if he was negligent or incompetent in his duties, or otherwise not successful.

You need more of a smoking gun to make the second claim.

The reports I have read fall short of finding proof that he personally covered things up.

As Cardinal, he wrote and enforced the coverup policy.

The church's approach was to hear the priests' confessions, and absolve them of their sins, all in secrecy.

Edited February 11, 2013 by jacee

Sleipnir · February 12, 2013

Too bad Desmond Tutu isn't any younger, I think he would make a great pope.

February 12, 2013

Sam Allardyce withdraws from the running...

http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/backofthenet/archive/2013/02/11/hammers-boss-allardyce-removes-self-from-pontiff-frame.aspx

Bonam · February 12, 2013

I think it's time for the Catholic church to show its progressive nature and elect their first atheist pope.

February 12, 2013

I think it's time for the Catholic church to show its progressive nature and elect their first atheist pope.

I heard Hillary is being considered for the job........

The_Squid · February 12, 2013

I think it's time for the Catholic church to show its progressive nature and elect their first atheist pope.

I'm sure that's already happened....

Bonam · February 12, 2013

I'm sure that's already happened....

Sorry, first publicly atheist pope. I'm sure no one gets to the top of the Catholic church with any kind of misconceptions about its holiness or its back story intact.

Hudson Jones · February 12, 2013

After years of protecting child predators, Darth Sidious decides to hang up his hat. We'll see who will replace him to lead the ugly and corrupt organization.

cybercoma · February 12, 2013

There's a relatively good chance that this time they'll elect the Cardinal from Québec. We could see a Canadian pope.

jacee · February 12, 2013

People knee-jerk about Catholics.

Catholics = pedophiles. It's actually quite unfair.

People knee-jerk about pedophiles.

To the extent that the Vatican, the Catholic churches and Catholics themselves hide the truth, protect the perpetrators, defend the corruption, blame 'society' or the victims, and villainize those who seek to expose the truth ... then yes, they do become targets.

But only to the extent that they themselves defend and participate in cover-up.

I'm going to draw a distinction here between

- Catholic churches in Canada, each of which operates as an independent corporation and the priests have some accountability to the congregation and community, and

- Holy Orders that answer ONLY to the Vatican but weild great influence in communities worldwide

For what it's worth, I think people need to consider the distinction because it is a very significant factor.

While investigating administrative authority for individual 'Indian' Residential Schools in Canada, I called an Archdiocese to inquire about affiliation/accountability of Holy Orders to Canadian church administration. Before I even finished my sentence, actually before I even said "residential schools" and as soon as I said the words "Holy Orders", the person answering the phone said emphatically and repeatedly "We have nothing to do with that!" We have nothing to do with that!" "We have nothing to do with that!"

The defensive, emphatic and agitated response spoke volumes.

I suggest to Catholic people that you not get caught up in defending priests of Holy Orders affiliated ONLY with the Vatican, who come and go from Canadian communities on the Vatican's orders: To the extent that they can, Canadian church administrations have sought to distance themselves from any accountability for the activities of the Vatican's Holy Orders.

I think this distinction is important.

Boges · February 12, 2013

I'm not Catholic. I don't want to get into a practice of defending their doctrine because as a protestant I, quite frankly, find it silly. I know there are many here that find all religion silly but whatever.

I read this morning that there are 400,000, or so, Catholic priests on Earth. How many molested kids? A few dozen, hundred, thousand? either way it only represents a tiny fraction of priests. It's not a wide spread crisis.

But as soon as the Pope is mentioned the immediate response is he defend pedophiles. Perhaps he should have handled it different but people want to taint everything Catholics do with this scandal. Public Service Union defends it's members no matter what too.

I also read a Quebec Cardinal is 7/5 odds to become the next Pope. That'd be pretty cool. Two African Cardinals are 4/1.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Boges

sharkman · February 12, 2013

While investigating administrative authority for individual 'Indian' Residential Schools in Canada, I called an Archdiocese to inquire about affiliation/accountability of Holy Orders to Canadian church administration. Before I even finished my sentence, actually before I even said "residential schools" and as soon as I said the words "Holy Orders", the person answering the phone said emphatically and repeatedly "We have nothing to do with that!" We have nothing to do with that!" "We have nothing to do with that!"

Why were you investigating this? As a part of your job?

sharkman · February 12, 2013

I'm not Catholic. I don't want to get into a practice of defending their doctrine because as a protestant I, quite frankly, find it silly. I know there are many here that find all religion silly but whatever.

I read this morning that there are 400,000, or so, Catholic priests on Earth. How many molested kids? A few dozen, hundred, thousand? either way it only represents a fraction of priests. It's not a wide spread crisis.

But as soon as the Pope is mentioned the immediate response is he defend pedophiles. Perhaps he should have handled it different but people want to taint everything Catholics do with this scandal. Public Service Union defends it's members no matter what too.

I also read a Quebec Cardinal is 7/5 odds to become the next Pope. That'd be pretty cool. Two African Cardinals are 4/1.

I'm with you on this. I'd wager that with molestation, incest and whatever other kinds of sex with children there is, the rates among the general population is much higher than with priests. And please don't knee-jerk about me defending priests or rationalizing or some other nonsense. I'm not. What I'd like to know is, who is defending these kids. We hear all about kids that get attacked by priests and rightly so, but the child is damaged for life whether it's their priest or parent or relative or teacher or whatever. All are equally wrong and should be ruthlessly investigated.

jacee · February 12, 2013

I read this morning that there are 400,000, or so, Catholic priests on Earth. How many molested kids? A few dozen, hundred, thousand? either way it only represents a fraction of priests. It's not a wide spread crisis.

Makes me want to throw up just reading this, Boges.

But I'll leave it to you to educate yourself.

Wiki's always a good place to start.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#section_3

In one Archdiocese ...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Melbourne#section_1

The sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Archdiocese of Melbourne involves a reported 40 suicides among 620 sexual abuse victims acknowledged to the public after internal investigations by the Roman Catholic Church in Victoria.

It may not seem important to you, but it certainly matters to victims and their families.

I need some fresh air.

Edited February 12, 2013 by jacee

The_Squid · February 12, 2013

I read this morning that there are 400,000, or so, Catholic priests on Earth. How many molested kids? A few dozen, hundred, thousand? either way it only represents a tiny fraction of priests. It's not a wide spread crisis.

But as soon as the Pope is mentioned the immediate response is he defend pedophiles. Perhaps he should have handled it different but people want to taint everything Catholics do with this scandal. Public Service Union defends it's members no matter what too.

I'm with you on this. I'd wager that with molestation, incest and whatever other kinds of sex with children there is, the rates among the general population is much higher than with priests.

Minimizing the rape of children and cover up of child molesters within the church is probably going to be a hard sell to most people... I'm surprised anyone would even try! Shows cajones I guess... and a certain lack of empathy.

Boges · February 12, 2013

It may not seem important to you, but it certainly matters to victims and their families.

I need some fresh air.

Those are horrible things and those people should be dealt with harshly. And it certainly does matter.

But whenever Catholics are discussed, is it fair to always mention this scandal?

Boges · February 12, 2013

Minimizing the rape of children and cover up of child molesters within the church is probably going to be a hard sell to most people... I'm surprised anyone would even try! Shows cajones I guess... and a certain lack of empathy.

Never have I minimized the suffering of those involved.

Is this the number one issue relating to the selection of a new Pope? If this Canadian Cardinal is selected Pope, should he be held responsible for sins of those who came before him?

Boges · February 12, 2013

Here's a column by Michael Coren. He wrote a book defending Catholics. He's got a show on Sun News now but as done lots of stuff in all corners of Canadian media (including with the CBC)

http://www.catholicr...atholic-bashing

Those of us who have had to study the ugly figures for sexual abuse knew some time ago that the rates within the Church of England and its international branches were generally higher than within Catholicism, though not as high as those documented in, for example, public education. No matter, if it’s abuse it has to be Catholic abuse, and why allow truth to get in the way of a good story.
A good story; which is precisely what I heard when I listened to Coach Joe Paterno speak a few years ago now, down at Penn State. I was there delivering a set of lectures on G.K. Chesterton and Edwardian English literature of all things, and “Coach,” as he was known, came to listen. It was as if the icon has suddenly come to life. Awe and invincible respect all round. He seemed a nice man, and it’s his assistant, Jerry Sandusky, not him who has been charged with hideous crimes of molesting young boys. Joe, we’re told, knew about some of them and did far too little to intervene.

Which has led most people to assume that pretty much every football coach is part of some enormous sexual underworld, covering up or committing rape and any number of sexual assaults. But of course not. We’re sane, sensible people and we would never make such banal generalizations. That sort of rubbish is reserved for Roman Catholic priests.

Look, numerous studies have shown that abuse occurs wherever there is a power dynamic between an adult and a young person. Its truly horrible, and not confined to any one denomination or profession. Yet only Catholic priests are smothered with the same dirty blanket of assumed guilt; only Catholic priests have to tolerate venomous jokes about their alleged behaviour; and only Catholic priests, it seems, are never allowed to defend themselves.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Boges

guyser · February 12, 2013

Here's a column by Michael Coren.

He is an asshat, and beyond that some salient pointws but geez.....talk about moronic....

Which has led most people to assume that pretty much every football coach is part of some enormous sexual underworld, covering up or committing rape and any number of sexual assault

Never heard anything such as that.

Boges · February 12, 2013

Never heard anything such as that.

He was being sarcastic. Of course no one said that.

But someone says Pope or priest the default reaction seems to be sex scandal.

According to the editorial in today's Star this Pope HAS attempted to repair the problems the scandal has caused.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2013/02/12/pope_benedicts_resignation_leaves_roman_catholics_without_a_stern_pastor_editorial.html

It will be up to church historians to judge his eight-year papacy as a relative success or failure. His chief mission was to re-evangelize secular Europe and other regions where the faith is stumbling. That butted up against widespread anger over damning reports of Catholic clergy mistreating and sexually abusing young people, and the Vatican’s inept handling of the scandal. Benedict openly condemned such “sin” and “filth” and tightened the mechanisms for weeding out abusive clergy. Even so, the damage has been deep, widespread and lasting. Reports of Vatican cronyism and corruption haven’t helped.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Boges

guyser · February 12, 2013

He was being sarcastic. Of course no one said that.

But someone says Pope or priest the default reaction seems to be sex scandal.

According to the editorial in today's Star this Pope HAS attempted to repair the problems the scandal has caused.

http://www.thestar.c..._editorial.html

Thanks, duly noted.

The rot of cover up has reached as high as it ever could which is part and parcel of the CC problems.

Boges · February 12, 2013

Thanks, duly noted.

The rot of cover up has reached as high as it ever could which is part and parcel of the CC problems.

I think the CC should be far more concerned with the problems certain doctrines they have creates in the developing world (cough ban on contraception!)