Iran uncovers story of the decade

[login]

http://news.national...ren-for-profit/

Police in Alberta are said to be abducting native children for sale.

Before you judge try to read the statements first as if it was a CBC news story.

Edited December 12, 2012 by login

[DogOnPorch]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/11/jordans-prince-hassan-condemned-for-consorting-with-zionist-enemy-after-attending-jewish-charity-event/

[Keepitsimple]

Login......I'm assuming you believe this story?

[Topaz]

Kind hard to believe but I guess anything now a days is posible. So lets look at the reason behind it, IF it was true. By taking FN children and letting others raise them, that would help to reduce the number of FN on reserves and in time reduce reserves and Canada's financial support for the treaties.

[PIK]

This needs to end right now, to even bring this up is sickening. I would bet this is that fucking idiot indian that went to Iran to bad mouth canada.

[Guest Derek L]

Rush is going to the Rock & Roll Hall of fame?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNZru4JG_Uo

[Moonbox]

http://news.national...ren-for-profit/

Police in Alberta are said to be abducting native children for sale.

Before you judge try to read the statements first as if it was a CBC news story.

This is one of the saddest, goofiest things I've seen in a long time. How is it that Iran, a small nation from which people flee and move to Canada, and about as far away from us as possible, has any special insight into Canadian aboriginal affairs? I don't think you need to be a genius to understand the connection between Iran being Israel's most hated enemy, and Canada being Israel's most vocal ally.

login, I hope you posted this article for a laugh. If not...I worry about you.

[Signals.Cpl]

I love how the nations that used children for mine removal is spreading BS like this only a short time after Canada removed its diplomatic mission from Iran...

Or maybe someone lost their children to child protection services and are now spewing BS for an imaginary kidnaping... I also love how they snuck the Israel comment in there... plus what about the thousands of missing and murdered white, black, asian women? Is that part of the conspiracy as well?

[login]

This is one of the saddest, goofiest things I've seen in a long time. How is it that Iran, a small nation from which people flee and move to Canada, and about as far away from us as possible, has any special insight into Canadian aboriginal affairs? I don't think you need to be a genius to understand the connection between Iran being Israel's most hated enemy, and Canada being Israel's most vocal ally.

login, I hope you posted this article for a laugh. If not...I worry about you.

Residential Schools.

Its not like kids arn't taken from First Nations homes, the part I'd like to see investigated is the potential money trail...

It seems unbeleivable but seems eerily familiar.

http://www.wearecominghome.com/

Edited December 13, 2012 by login

[DogOnPorch]

Residential Schools.

Its not like kids arn't taken from First Nations homes, the part I'd like to see investigated is the potential money trail...

It seems unbeleivable but seems eerily familiar.

http://www.wearecominghome.com/

As a child, I was taken from the safe surrounds of the Canadian public school system and moved to a harsh English private school where I had to wear a uniform and tie and experienced corporal punishment for not conforming to their evil conformity machine. I suspect the school did it for profit! I want to see the money trail.

[jacee]

http://news.national...ren-for-profit/

Police in Alberta are said to be abducting native children for sale.

Before you judge try to read the statements first as if it was a CBC news story.

It seems pretty farfetched ... but we'd have no way of knowing if it was true: The child services agencies have never before provided any public accounting for the children in their care.

Once in Ontario they counted and reported the number of children who died in their care that year - 90 - a number that so shocked them that ... well ... I guess they never counted again because it hasn't been reported again.

And of course if children were sold for illegal adoption or for sex slavery, we'd have no way of knowing that either because - oops! They must have 'run away'.

There simply is no way of knowing how many children 'in care' are missing, dead, sex slaves, illegally adopted, etc. because the agencies are not required to provide any public accounting of the numbers of children in their care and what happens to them.

Maybe this will rattle them enough to produce the numbers to prove it wrong.

Or maybe all those kids just 'ran away'.

We have no way of knowing.

Just imagine though ... if there really is such a thing as a 'market' for children ... Canada is a goldmine of children 'in care' uncounted and unaccounted for.

Edited December 13, 2012 by jacee

[dre]

I love how the nations that used children for mine removal is spreading BS like this only a short time after Canada removed its diplomatic mission from Iran...

Or maybe someone lost their children to child protection services and are now spewing BS for an imaginary kidnaping... I also love how they snuck the Israel comment in there... plus what about the thousands of missing and murdered white, black, asian women? Is that part of the conspiracy as well?

Its unfortunately that our hawkish social conservative government, and their hawkish social conservative government have each other in the crosshairs.

[Signals.Cpl]

Its unfortunately that our hawkish social conservative government, and their hawkish social conservative government have each other in the crosshairs.

Maybe they got the original scoop from the onion?

[cybercoma]

This isn't very convincing.

The reason a greater number of aboriginal children are in social services is well documented and highlighted at the end of the article. Conspiracy theorists like to switch up their premises and conclusions when making arguments, so that they have some resemblance to reality.

The only way the government is forcing these kids into social services is through their completely inhumane practice of forcing First Nations communities under federal jurisdiction by law then severely underfunding their communities, as compared to the rest of Canadian society.

[TimG]

their completely inhumane practice of forcing First Nations communities under federal jurisdiction by law

This is something that natives want because they see their treaties as treaties with federal government.

then severely underfunding their communities, as compared to the rest of Canadian society.

I would like to see numbers for similar sized rural communities before I accept your premise. I suspect the main reason for the short fall in funding is any non-native community needs to have an economic rational to exist (i.e. a source of jobs) so non-native communities have a local tax base to fund their operations. Remote native communities often have no connection to economic logic and no local tax base which means they depend on the federal government for all of their needs. Edited December 13, 2012 by TimG

[Signals.Cpl]

This isn't very convincing.

The reason a greater number of aboriginal children are in social services is well documented and highlighted at the end of the article. Conspiracy theorists like to switch up their premises and conclusions when making arguments, so that they have some resemblance to reality.

The only way the government is forcing these kids into social services is through their completely inhumane practice of forcing First Nations communities under federal jurisdiction by law then severely underfunding their communities, as compared to the rest of Canadian society.

Are they severely underfunded or are they just worse at managing their resources than the rest of Canadian society? do you have the numbers to back this up? To show us that the government is starving them of funds? Or is it simply them getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in Salary as chiefs, wasting money and such? If they want money they should be held accountable for the way the money is spend rather than get the money waste is and come back crying the federal government is underfunding them.

[Shady]

It seems pretty farfetched ... but we'd have no way of knowing if it was true: The child services agencies have never before provided any public accounting for the children in their care.

Once in Ontario they counted and reported the number of children who died in their care that year - 90 - a number that so shocked them that ... well ... I guess they never counted again because it hasn't been reported again.

And of course if children were sold for illegal adoption or for sex slavery, we'd have no way of knowing that either because - oops! They must have 'run away'.

There simply is no way of knowing how many children 'in care' are missing, dead, sex slaves, illegally adopted, etc. because the agencies are not required to provide any public accounting of the numbers of children in their care and what happens to them.

Maybe this will rattle them enough to produce the numbers to prove it wrong.

Or maybe all those kids just 'ran away'.

We have no way of knowing.

Just imagine though ... if there really is such a thing as a 'market' for children ... Canada is a goldmine of children 'in care' uncounted and unaccounted for.

How do we know that you don't beat children? We have no way of knowing!

[cybercoma]

This is something that natives want because they see their treaties as treaties with federal government.

What I said was, "completely inhumane practice of forcing First Nations communities under federal jurisdiction by law then severely underfunding their communities." Breaking up the quote changes its meaning.

I would like to see numbers for similar sized rural communities before I accept your premise. I suspect the main reason for the short fall in funding is any non-native community needs to have an economic rational to exist (i.e. a source of jobs) so non-native communities have a local tax base to fund their operations. Remote native communities often have no connection to economic logic and no local tax base which means they depend on the federal government for all of their needs.

If you want to make a comparison, then you have to look at all government spending (local, provincial, and federal) per Canadian. Since First Nations fall entirely under the federal government, it is their responsibility to ensure that the First Nations are receiving the same level of service as the rest of Canadians. It was the agreement that they made with the First Nations. Also, if the geographic location of the reserves makes it such that the government is spending too much, then perhaps they should have thought of that before they pushed all the First Nations out into remote communities where it's difficult to provide services. That's not the fault of the First Nations. It was an agreement that the government came to with them.

Now that the government is not living up to its end of the bargain, they want their land back. It's like getting a mortgage for your house, then not making payments. You won't be living there for very long.

[cybercoma]

Are they severely underfunded or are they just worse at managing their resources than the rest of Canadian society? do you have the numbers to back this up? To show us that the government is starving them of funds? Or is it simply them getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in Salary as chiefs, wasting money and such? If they want money they should be held accountable for the way the money is spend rather than get the money waste is and come back crying the federal government is underfunding them.

First Nations communities are more accountable than any municipality. Their books are completely open and they have to actually seek approval from Ottawa before they do anything. The idea that aboriginal people all over this country are suffering and dying, while their Chiefs are popping champagne and going on cruises is myth and an absurd one at that.

The auditor general noted, “The education gap between First Nations living on reserves and the general Canadian population has widened, the shortage of adequate housing on reserves has increased, comparability of child and family services is not ensured, and the reporting requirements on First Nations remain burdensome.” Not only do they suffer from inadequate services and resources, but they're severely regulated. The federal government controls everything. So when the feds say they don't know where the money is going or what has happened, they are outright lying.

First Nations receive roughly $8750 per person on average to support local services and programs, while the rest of Canada gets about $18724 per person for the same. Even if you take the municipal level out, federal budget expenditures in 2010 were $280 billion or $9300 per Canadian and provincial expenditures in Ontario were $123 billion or $9500 for each citizen of Ontario. That works out to at least $18800 spent per Ontarian without even considering municipal spending yet. Attawapiskat, which has had some unique challenges and received additional funding for them, got $17.6 million in 2010. That works out to $11355 per person in Attawapiskat. When you add in municipal funding Attawapiskat gets about half the funding of other Ontarians. Imagine for a second that the federal, provincial, and municipal governments where you live all cut their spending in half. Just think about what that would do to the community.

[Signals.Cpl]

What I said was, "completely inhumane practice of forcing First Nations communities under federal jurisdiction by law then severely underfunding their communities." Breaking up the quote changes its meaning.

You are making the statement that they are severely underfunded, what comes before that doesn't change the meaning other than making it clear who you are accusing of screwing the FN.

If you want to make a comparison, then you have to look at all government spending (local, provincial, and federal) per Canadian.

The FN are the Local government, can't fault the federal government that the FN are not as prosperous as other local governments.

Since First Nations fall entirely under the federal government, it is their responsibility to ensure that the First Nations are receiving the same level of service as the rest of Canadians.

Canadians fall under 3 layers, municipal(local), provincial and federal while the first nations fall under municipal(local) So the federal government would be responsible only for the Federal and Provincial portions.

It was the agreement that they made with the First Nations. Also, if the geographic location of the reserves makes it such that the government is spending too much, then perhaps they should have thought of that before they pushed all the First Nations out into remote communities where it's difficult to provide services.

Or maybe they should close them down altogether rather than using that as a reason to dump money in to communities that are difficult to maintain and are economically unsustainable. The Federal Government should be responsible for helping the FN become self-sufficient of sorts rather than dump money without oversight in to communities that will be as bad if not worse 50 years from now because of guilt over their treatment by a government 50,100 or 500 years ago.

That's not the fault of the First Nations. It was an agreement that the government came to with them.

Ask yourself this questions, in 100 years what would change if we throw money at the FN without any expectations? If we don't place some demands on them to become at least to some degree self sufficient we will make them dependant on the government for generations to come.

[cybercoma]

The FN are the Local government, can't fault the federal government that the FN are not as prosperous as other local governments.

Canadians fall under 3 layers, municipal(local), provincial and federal while the first nations fall under municipal(local) So the federal government would be responsible only for the Federal and Provincial portions.

You clearly don't understand the revenue structure of First Nations and who is responsible for what. Go learn those things, then get back to me because I'm not interested in educating you in order to have a discussion about the issue.

[Signals.Cpl]

First Nations communities are more accountable than any municipality.

Any source you base that opinion on? Everything I have seen so far about the subject suggests that they are not as open as you are stating.

Their books are completely open and they have to actually seek approval from Ottawa before they do anything.

Again any source for that? Last time I checked the protest held by some of the FN chiefs including Theresa Spence were angry over a number of bills and I quote"They are angry over a number of bills before Parliament, including one that would force First Nations to disclose their financial statements and the salaries of chiefs and councillors."(A10, Toronto Star, 12 Dec 2012)

Now if they are upset about a bill being in front of parliament that would get them to open their books then that would suggest they are not as open as you might believe.

The idea that aboriginal people all over this country are suffering and dying, while their Chiefs are popping champagne and going on cruises is myth and an absurd one at that.

Again do you have a source as to how much the chiefs are making? If they are getting federal fund then they should be open... You are suggesting that they are making small salaries but from what I have seen it is not the case.

The auditor general noted, “The education gap between First Nations living on reserves and the general Canadian population has widened, the shortage of adequate housing on reserves has increased, comparability of child and family services is not ensured, and the reporting requirements on First Nations remain burdensome.”

And how would throwing more money solve that problem if they are not allocating the money properly? I want to know how much they get from the federal government, where it all goes and the salaries of the leadership. Simply put I would like to see who is at fault wether it is the federal government providing low funds or the FN wasting their resources. Because if it is the federal government not handing enough money then the problem is easy to solve find the right number and fix the problem. If the fault lies within the FN then the problem will not be solved with more money as there is a finite amount of money and people in general are more than capable of wasting it all while complaining they don't get enough and are being screwed.

Not only do they suffer from inadequate services and resources, but they're severely regulated. The federal government controls everything. So when the feds say they don't know where the money is going or what has happened, they are outright lying.

Prove to us that the FN are severely regulated and then we can talk...

First Nations receive roughly $8750 per person on average to support local services and programs, while the rest of Canada gets about $18724 per person for the same. Even if you take the municipal level out, federal budget expenditures in 2010 were $280 billion or $9300 per Canadian and provincial expenditures in Ontario were $123 billion or $9500 for each citizen of Ontario. That works out to at least $18800 spent per Ontarian without even considering municipal spending yet. Attawapiskat, which has had some unique challenges and received additional funding for them, got $17.6 million in 2010. That works out to $11355 per person in Attawapiskat. When you add in municipal funding Attawapiskat gets about half the funding of other Ontarians. Imagine for a second that the federal, provincial, and municipal governments where you live all cut their spending in half. Just think about what that would do to the community.

Think about the reason why there is a discrepancy... do you realistically expect that a community of just under 2000 people will receive the same services as a major urban centre such as Montreal, Ottawa or Toronto? Do you think that the difference in spending FN receives per person is that much different than a community of comparable size anywhere else in Canada?

And lets look at it for a second, do you really believe that the provincial government sending does not benefit FN in Ontario at all? Are the roads to the communities funded 100% by the federal government? Are they maintained by them as well? Do they go and receive treatment in hospitals that are 100% federal funding? What about the airports and other infrastructure that the province maintains that is essential for supplying and maintaining those FN communities?

[Signals.Cpl]

You clearly don't understand the revenue structure of First Nations and who is responsible for what. Go learn those things, then get back to me because I'm not interested in educating you in order to have a discussion about the issue.

What revenue structure? 100% from the federal government and the local community makes very little? You are saying that the Federal government is responsible 100% for them while every other community shares at least in part financial responsibility for itself.

[cybercoma]

Any source you base that opinion on? Everything I have seen so far about the subject suggests that they are not as open as you are stating.

The auditor general's report on First Nations.

Again any source for that? Last time I checked the protest held by some of the FN chiefs including Theresa Spence were angry over a number of bills and I quote"They are angry over a number of bills before Parliament, including one that would force First Nations to disclose their financial statements and the salaries of chiefs and councillors."(A10, Toronto Star, 12 Dec 2012)

Now if they are upset about a bill being in front of parliament that would get them to open their books then that would suggest they are not as open as you might believe.

Their books are open. They have to get federal approval for their expenditures. The federal government wants to control their books and make their Chiefs salaries public. There's no reason for this. It certainly doesn't address the issues they're having.

Again do you have a source as to how much the chiefs are making? If they are getting federal fund then they should be open... You are suggesting that they are making small salaries but from what I have seen it is not the case.

I didn't suggest any such thing. They are simultaneously the mayor, premier, and prime minister of their reserves. They should be paid well.

And how would throwing more money solve that problem if they are not allocating the money properly?

There's absolutely no evidence that they are not allocating the money properly. Go read the auditor general's report.

I want to know how much they get from the federal government, where it all goes and the salaries of the leadership.

Do you ask that of any other municipality? You've said this before anyway and during the Attawapiskat situation it was pointed out that their books are completely open online. Moreover, they have to get approval from AANDC before spending money on anything. AANDC determines what they can and cannot spend money on and how much they can spend. So it's all there.

Simply put I would like to see who is at fault wether it is the federal government providing low funds or the FN wasting their resources.

Since the government spends less on First Nations per capita than the rest of the country, it's pretty clear that their standards are going to be a hell of a lot lower.

Prove to us that the FN are severely regulated and then we can talk...

Read the auditor general's report. Then go look up how AANDC works.

Think about the reason why there is a discrepancy... do you realistically expect that a community of just under 2000 people will receive the same services as a major urban centre such as Montreal, Ottawa or Toronto? Do you think that the difference in spending FN receives per person is that much different than a community of comparable size anywhere else in Canada?

Who said anything about major urban areas? I averaged the figures across the entire population and I only included provincial and federal, not local services. Do you think the government spends less on healthcare, education, social assistance, housing, etc. in smaller communities? Of course not. Even small communities have their own grade schools and sometimes high schools. All funded by the province. But on reserves these would have to be funded by the federal government. And they're drastically underfunded. There's no reason the kids in Attawapiskat should be in an unheated portable that's infested with rats. That's not a school and it wouldn't be acceptable in any other community in Canada. People would be on the phone immediate to their MPP or MLA tearing them a new one. Except when the FNs complain to the federal government, Canadians like you just tell them to STFU and stop asking for more money.

And lets look at it for a second, do you really believe that the provincial government sending does not benefit FN in Ontario at all? Are the roads to the communities funded 100% by the federal government? Are they maintained by them as well? Do they go and receive treatment in hospitals that are 100% federal funding? What about the airports and other infrastructure that the province maintains that is essential for supplying and maintaining those FN communities?

Everything in FN communities is funded by the federal government including roads, water treatment, and sewage, which typically would be municipally/provincially funded in other communities.

[cybercoma]

What revenue structure? 100% from the federal government and the local community makes very little? You are saying that the Federal government is responsible 100% for them while every other community shares at least in part financial responsibility for itself.

What is it? The federal government 100% or less than 100% plus community funding? Your post here doesn't make any sense and you clearly don't know what money First Nations communities have and where they get it from.

Again, I'm not going to sit here and educate you about the situation, in order to have a discussion with you. Go look these things up for yourself. First Nations communities do raise their own money in addition to federal funding.