Gay "in denial"....and Gay-to-straight theraphy

[GostHacked]

I'm going to try to go completely and ridiculously gay over the next week and see if I can change. I'll let you all know the results.

I'll pray for you!!!

[Black Dog]

People who are homosexual may want to be heterosexual because they may want to have and raise children of their own and be fulfilled in the relationship in which they are doing so. This would have nothing to do with any third party opinions of said individuals.

Given it's possible to have and raise children of one's own and be fulfilled in a homosexual relationship, any gay who thinks otherwise is probably of the self-hating variety.

[WIP]

I'm trying to get you to see how the source of the pain is important. Maybe this example will help:

A boy is relentlessly bullied at school. He fears going to school, feigns illness, hides in the washroom during recess but regardless of his attempts to avoid harm, he is attacked multiple times per week. The boy notices that the girls at his school do not physically bully one another and decides he would be happier as a girl. Let's pretend that age is not an issue for sex change procedures. Should a therapist help the boy with his request or help the boy deal with the root issues?

Thanks for adding the subject of bullying, because I was going to mention this before but never got around to it. I first became aware of schools in some areas of the U.S. giving tacit approval to bullying by their lack of interest or determination to do anything about it when I first heard this NPR discussion on the subject on the show - All Things Considered. From the postnotes, check out the quote from self-proclaimed Christian leader - Tony Perkins:

"There's no correlation between inacceptance of homosexuality and depression and suicide," he says.

Rather, Perkins says, there is another factor that leads kids to kill themselves.

"These young people who identify as gay or lesbian, we know from the social science that they have a higher propensity to depression or suicide because of that internal conflict," he says.

Homosexuality is "abnormal," he says, and kids know it, which leads them to despair. That's why he wants to confront gay activism in public schools. For example, his group supports the Day of Truth, when Christian high-schoolers make their case that homosexuality is a sin.

He's literally holding the smoking gun in his hand....even if he is too stupid to realize it, because he first denies an obvious connection between bullying and social ostracism with suicide and depression! Get the 2nd paragraph where he says in so many words, this is just the way queers are! They're naturally suicidal and depressed because of their own internal issues. And then he caps it off by motivating youth to proclaim the homosexuality = sin message in the schools. So, is there anyone here to stupid to connect the dots between that message and what happens to the kids at school who are gay, or even suspected of being gay?

And, FWIW, we only have to go back 40 or 50 years to the time when the parents of the likes of Tony Perkins et al. would want their children to proclaim that negroes were the descendents of Noah's cursed son - Ham, and make the case against race mixing forced on them by the Civil Rights Act. I like to throw that back in the faces of any clown who comes at me waving their Bibles on gays or other social issues, that I am old enough to remember when Klan-supporting preachers pulled quotes from their Bibles to support anti-miscegenation laws down south. Now, they pretend that they were on MLK's side all along!

That story from NPR would be sad and sordid enough if it wasn't for the fact that Tennessee, Louisiana and maybe even a few other states since then, have passed state laws directly conflicting with the federal courts, striking gays from the list of groups that are provided legal protection from bullying; all thanks to the lobbying of "Christians" like the Family Research Council. I understand that: "by their fruits ye shall know them." I guess that's all that needs to be said!

[Guest American Woman]

People who are homosexual may want to be heterosexual because they may want to have and raise children of their own and be fulfilled in the relationship in which they are doing so. This would have nothing to do with any third party opinions of said individuals.

I agree. Everyone isn't happy with the way they were born, so why should/wuold gays be the exception? There are people who wish they had been born with different 'characteristics,' so I would imagine some homosexuals wish they had been born heterosexual. Why should gays be the exception, all being perfectly happy with their sexuality, but for some people's contempt?

[Sleipnir]

I agree. Everyone isn't happy with the way they were born, so why should/wuold gays be the exception? There are people who wish they had been born with different 'characteristics,' so I would imagine some homosexuals wish they had been born heterosexual.

Perhaps negative peer pressure from society drives some of them to be unhappy for how they were born?

[Guest American Woman]

Perhaps negative peer pressure from society drives some of them to be unhappy for how they were born?

I wasn't referring to all homosexuals by any means, so I totally agree that such negative peer pressure does drive some of them to be unhappy for how they were born. I just don't think it accounts for all who are unhappy about it.

[Moonlight Graham]

I'm going to try to go completely and ridiculously gay over the next week and see if I can change. I'll let you all know the results.

So far, so fabulous!

[Guest American Woman]

So far, so fabulous!

So you're going to engage in stereotypes of homosexuals over the next week?

[Guest]

He'll be too busy watching musicals.

[Moonlight Graham]

So you're going to engage in stereotypes of homosexuals over the next week?

My new friends Bruce and Gary say they take offense to that.

[g_bambino]

[T]he person-who's-not-really-gay-but-sees-himself-as-gay... He'll see that he's not gay. And he can perhaps go on about being the heterosexual that he actually is.

Why do you frame that as though human sexuality is a bipolar, one-or-the-other thing? (Though, I suspect you actually think it's a one-thing-only thing.)

He was the heterosexual in denial!

There are people who are in denial of their heterosexuality. (Not that that necessarily makes them "a heterosexual".)

[g_bambino]

I've been saying throughout this thread that sexuality is not a binary of gay-straight, but you must have missed that.

Yes, I must have. However, that wasn't what I was speaking about in my reply to your post. Rather, I was addressing what seemed to be the lack of recognition on your part that not only is human sexuality not binary, it's also not fixed; a person's place on the "spectrum" (as it's often put) can, entirely "naturally", shift - to varying degrees between infinitesimal and quite radical. The way you'd worded your statement, it appeared pretty clearly that you felt every person who's gone from self-identifying with the label "gay" to doing so with the label "straight" did so because they felt forced by unfavourable circumstances to it dishonestly.

However, I may not have given due importance to your use of the word "try". If someone who thinks they're "gay" (even if that belief is, in itself, misguided) but feels compelled to force themselves to think and feel the way popular culture tells us a "straight" person is supposed to think and feel, then, I concede that they're probably almost always doing that because they feel compelled by the surrounding culture to make a choice: change or leave.

[ed.: sp., c/e]

Edited December 14, 2012 by g_bambino

[WIP]

I wasn't referring to all homosexuals by any means, so I totally agree that such negative peer pressure does drive some of them to be unhappy for how they were born. I just don't think it accounts for all who are unhappy about it.

Explain?

How would we determine the root cause of someone gay....or anyone for that matter being unhappy?

I haven't known enough gay people during my lifetime to arrive at any conclusions about how they feel affected by being gay, but they seem to fall along the same spectrum of behaviour as everyone else, although it seems that there are more gays in the negative or depressed zone than would be average. I just don't accept the claim that this has anything to do with their innate sexual orientation. Why would anyone feel anguish about being gay or conflicted about it in any way, if someone or the whole society that they are part of, wasn't already shaming them about their attractions?

[cybercoma]

Yes, I must have. However, that wasn't what I was speaking about in my reply to your post. Rather, I was addressing what seemed to be the lack of recognition on your part that not only is human sexuality not binary, it's also not fixed; a person's place on the "spectrum" (as it's often put) can, entirely "naturally", shift - to varying degrees between infinitesimal and quite radical. The way you'd worded your statement, it appeared pretty clearly that you felt every person who's gone from self-identifying with the label "gay" to doing so with the label "straight" did so because they felt forced by unfavourable circumstances to it dishonestly.

However, I may not have given due importance to your use of the word "try". If someone who thinks they're "gay" (even if that belief is, in itself, misguided) but feels compelled to force themselves to think and feel the way popular culture tells us a "straight" person is supposed to think and feel, then, I concede that they're probably almost always doing that because they feel compelled by the surrounding culture to make a choice: change or leave.

[ed.: sp., c/e]

Thinking out loud?

[Guest American Woman]

Explain?

How would we determine the root cause of someone gay....or anyone for that matter being unhappy?

[...]Why would anyone feel anguish about being gay or conflicted about it in any way, if someone or the whole society that they are part of, wasn't already shaming them about their attractions?

Why would they feel that way? Because they grow up with the idea of having, wanting, a wife/husband and kids, and discovering that they are gay means redefining their expectations. It's not always easy.

[Sleipnir]

Why would they feel that way? Because they grow up with the idea of having, wanting, a wife/husband and kids, and discovering that they are gay means redefining their expectations. It's not always easy.

I still think negative(and neutral) peer pressure that affects the way they grow up with the idea of a 'perfect family'. Examples shown in T.V shows, magazines, books, guilt trip by parents to date the opposite sex, etc.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Sleipnir

[Guest American Woman]

I still think negative peer pressure that affects the way they grow up with the idea of a 'perfect family'.

From the time we are children, many of us have ideas in our heads, even before we know what 'sexual attraction' is - and some of those ideas involve having a wife/husband and children. I've read accounts of gays and how they felt upon their realization that they were gay, and for some it does involve giving up expectations that they had for their lives.

Edited December 15, 2012 by American Woman

[WIP]

Why would they feel that way? Because they grow up with the idea of having, wanting, a wife/husband and kids, and discovering that they are gay means redefining their expectations. It's not always easy.

And they can't do that if they're gay? Or, they can't do that in the U.S. until your country recognizes same-sex marriage rights?

[Guest American Woman]

And they can't do that if they're gay? Or, they can't do that in the U.S. until your country recognizes same-sex marriage rights?

Did you read what I said? - Because it has nothing to do with the recognition of same-sex marriage rights.

[betsy]

I'm trying to get you to see how the source of the pain is important. Maybe this example will help:

A boy is relentlessly bullied at school. He fears going to school, feigns illness, hides in the washroom during recess but regardless of his attempts to avoid harm, he is attacked multiple times per week. The boy notices that the girls at his school do not physically bully one another and decides he would be happier as a girl. Let's pretend that age is not an issue for sex change procedures. Should a therapist help the boy with his request or help the boy deal with the root issues?

Yes, your scenario could also be a possible factor. Who knows? We can only speculate what the root cause is.

A variety of scenarios could've been the possible factor why some gays are experiencing misery as gays - I'm emphasizing the strong feelings of unhappiness in a gay to go to the length of wanting to change through therapy. Just imagine the time involved, not to mention the expense of going through that?

He could've been dressed up as a girl since early childhood (I know of one about a kin - and the talk among family relatives how he was treated like a girl by old spinster aunts), he may've lacked a male model in his home, he may've been introduced to sensuality by another male (it could've been by another boy-child innocently discovering sensual pleasures as they played), a lot of factors are possible - and it all depends on the indiviual (the gay we're talking about) how he reacts or how he's impacted.

Like I said, each one is an individual, with their own history. Thus, we cannot lump them all together and stamp a label on them.

Back to your scenario, "Should a therapist help the boy with his request or help the boy deal with the root issues?" We're talking about an ADULT gay. So, he can decide for himself if he wants to seek therapy.

As for what the therapist should do - well, he's the one who will determine what's the real problem with this adult gay, right?

Isn't determining the root cause of a problem one of the most - if not the most - important goal by psychology/psychiatry?

Edited December 15, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Gay Rights Movement and their fanatical followers have their own agenda on this issue. Their method is manipulatively dishonest and dictatorial in scope.

Lord Carey backs Christian psychotherapist in 'gay conversion' row

By Robert Mendick, Chief Reporter

9:00PM GMT 28 Jan 2012

Lesley Pilkington was effectively barred from her professional register after attempting to convert a homosexual man in a therapy session at her home.

Her patient turned out to be a gay rights journalist, who had secretly recorded the sessions and then reported her to her professional body. Mrs Pilkington, a committed Christian, was subsequently found guilty of professional misconduct.

The therapy practised by Mrs Pilkington had been described as "absurd" by the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy (BACP) and roundly condemned by the Royal College of Psychiatrists.

But ahead of her appeal against the BACP ruling, Mrs Pilkington has received backing from the Rt Rev Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury.

In a letter to her professional body, Lord Carey – along with a number of senior figures – suggests Mrs Pilkington is herself a victim of entrapment whose therapy should be supported.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9046487/Lord-Carey-backs-Christian-psychotherapist-in-gay-conversion-row.html

Gay Rights Movement and followers want to make the decision for all. And they do play dirty.

Edited December 15, 2012 by betsy

[Bonam]

Did you read what I said? - Because it has nothing to do with the recognition of same-sex marriage rights.

Some people like WIP and Black Dog want to pretend that there are not certain biological limitations at play there

Although they may be right: I'm pretty sure as soon as its technologically possible the Canadian healthcare system will cover the needed medical procedures for two gay men to have a baby together, free of charge.

[betsy]

Strudwick’s Gay ‘cure’ therapy exposé: was it entrapment?

This entry was posted on August 1, 2012 by Michael Carchrie Campbell

Following the lecture there was a discussion session which was hosted by the BBC’s

William Crawley. One answer to one question posed by Mr Crawley stands out in my memory. The gist of the question was “Were your actions not entrapment?”

Strudwick states that his actions were not entrapment as he said that the definition of entrapment is conduct inducing a person to do something that the person would not otherwise have done.

However, it seems to me that his actions were indeed entrapment. Strudwick stated that he went into the therapy with the intention of exposing it, with no intention or desire whatsoever to change his sexual orientation. I suspect, though granted I do not know, that the therapists involved would have refused to treat him if they had known his true thoughts on the matter. To me, this was not telling the whole truth. Therapy really only works if you are truthful with your therapist. It seems to me that the whole project was based on an untruth.

http://andrewandmich...-it-entrapment/

Edited December 15, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

Some people like WIP and Black Dog want to pretend that there are not certain biological limitations at play there

There does seem to be a need to for some to blame any unhappiness regarding sexual preferences on society. It's more than the biological limitations, though - it's the expectations they themselves have grown up with; that they'll marry a member of the opposite sex, and have a 'traditional' family - the traditional way.

Although they may be right: I'm pretty sure as soon as its technologically possible the Canadian healthcare system will cover the needed medical procedures for two gay men to have a baby together, free of charge.

Even if that's true, and it likely is, it still requires a change in their expectations.

[cybercoma]

Right. They live in a vacuum. Society doesn't influence their interpretation of the "proper" family an shame them for wanting anything different.