F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[login]

Why? BC-2004 is quite familiar with the F-16.

What in terms of visibility?

[DogOnPorch]

Yes.

[nimiru]

And when the next fighter is chosen we would still have all the extra 24 billion in costs...

I would just like to know if that was a qualified statement or just bullshit as usual?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If you knew what an F-16 looked like, you'd know. But since you apparently do not....

Visibility....................

[DogOnPorch]

Visibility....................

Indeed. Pre-Blue Steel, the Vulcan was to do some pretty fancy climbing turns to get away from the H-Bomb detonation. No sense getting a good look at it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Indeed. Pre-Blue Steel, the Vulcan was to do some pretty fancy climbing turns to get away from the H-Bomb detonation. No sense getting a good look at it.

Yes, that's why we built flash blind window panels for American bombers.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, that's why we built flash blind window panels for American bombers.

The Brits had them, too, of course...but there was that awkward moment before that where you had to make your huge bomber do an Immelman.

[DogOnPorch]

Then there was the B-47...it was a bomber WITH great visibility out the cockpit. The plan there was to do an Immelman after lobbing its payload but to keep the belly pointed towards the impact for the flash or be well on your way in the opposite direction. That and a droppable welder's screen on the crew's flight helmets.

Edited December 18, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[Signals.Cpl]

I would just like to know if that was a qualified statement or just bullshit as usual?

Yes it is qualified... we would still need the pilots and technicians, we would need the clerks and supply techs, as well as the engineers, cooks, MPs, Weapon Technicians and the dozen or so other trades that would have to do their job for the F35 to function. The add the RCAF bases the the infrastructure within those bases, the equipment needed to maintain, supply and repair the F35s and quite a lot I am forgetting about...

Please stay out since you seem to be way out of your depth here...

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes it is qualified... we would still need the pilots and technicians, we would need the clerks and supply techs, as well as the engineers, cooks, MPs, Weapon Technicians and the dozen or so other trades that would have to do their job for the F35 to function....

Also note that some of the service life extension work being performed on CF-188s was contracted out to Harris Canada Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Harris Corporation of Melbourne, Florida.

[login]

Yes it is qualified... we would still need the pilots and technicians, we would need the clerks and supply techs, as well as the engineers, cooks, MPs, Weapon Technicians and the dozen or so other trades that would have to do their job for the F35 to function. The add the RCAF bases the the infrastructure within those bases, the equipment needed to maintain, supply and repair the F35s and quite a lot I am forgetting about...

Please stay out since you seem to be way out of your depth here...

this isn't actually true.

want does not equal 'need'

try another needs list but think about it first

Edited December 22, 2012 by login

[Wilber]

this isn't actually true.

want does not equal 'need'

try another needs list but think about it first

Ah, I don't think he is the one to think about if first. The only way you would not need to have those things is not have any aircraft at all. Unless of course you just want them to sit there so you can admire them in which case someone would still have to wash and wax them occasionally.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Wilber

[login]

Ah, I don't think he is the one to think about if first. The only way you would not need to have those things is not have any aircraft at all. Unless of course you just want them to sit there so you can admire them in which case someone would still have to wash and wax them occasionally.

cooks are a need, what are you feeding the jets? if they can learn to fly a plane they can learn to use a frying pan.

personnel are needed but the skill level does not require solitary specialists it is nonsense,

the want makes the structure, its not a requirement. it is a want so you might as well call it that

Edited December 22, 2012 by login

[Signals.Cpl]

cooks are a need, what are you feeding the jets? if they can learn to fly a plane they can learn to use a frying pan.

personnel are needed but the skill level does not require solitary specialists it is nonsense,

the want makes the structure, its not a requirement. it is a want so you might as well call it that

The structure is there because it works, cook is a full-time job starting from early in the morning to late at night when you have to get a meal ready for 2 or 3 thousand troops and civilian contractors. Technician of any sort is a full-time job because you need to keep your skills up to a certain standard. The military has trades because they want a SME at the workplace rather than a jack of all trades master of none. For every pilot you see there are at least 40-50 other people behind him keeping him fed, armed, in the air, with up-to-date knowledge and information as well as a means of landing. You try to give too many jobs to too few people and bad things happen. I know you have this fantasy of getting random civilians and forcing them to work a second job for free but this will not work in the REAL WORLD.

[login]

The structure is there because it works, cook is a full-time job starting from early in the morning to late at night when you have to get a meal ready for 2 or 3 thousand troops and civilian contractors. Technician of any sort is a full-time job because you need to keep your skills up to a certain standard. The military has trades because they want a SME at the workplace rather than a jack of all trades master of none. For every pilot you see there are at least 40-50 other people behind him keeping him fed, armed, in the air, with up-to-date knowledge and information as well as a means of landing. You try to give too many jobs to too few people and bad things happen. I know you have this fantasy of getting random civilians and forcing them to work a second job for free but this will not work in the REAL WORLD.

it is a perk plain and simple.

it isn't needed.

as far as it working there are models of failure and success.

the bottom line is that it is a perk and isn't about efficiency or cost reduction.

you like it that way and that is all there is too it.

its not like you are being fed hardtack, that worked longer than canada was a nation

if canada wanted it could train everyone for mainntaining and flight. they just don't want to.

its not about need though don't lie to people.

planes are still falling out of the sky so it ain't perfection

it ain't good but it is good enough

room service makes panzys but thats war these days right

its all about that clay at 500m or light at 5k

Edited December 22, 2012 by login

[Signals.Cpl]

it is a perk plain and simple.

Not a perk if its needed, the barracks do not allow for storage of food and most definitely do not allow stoves and such. In my years as a CF member I have been in only one barracks with a small refrigerator and a microwave... and this is not exactly the example of healthy eating.

it isn't needed.

Any suggestion as to how you can feed the soldiers then? As I said the barracks don't allow for cooking and seeing as many of these bases are in somewhat isolated areas soldiers would be reduced to eating rations year round which will end up being more expensive in the long run.

as far as it working there are models of failure and success.

Where is the model of success that a democracy like Canada could follow and use, an example that the government and military has never seen since I assume if such an example were to exist and it were plausible we would be using it already.

the bottom line is that it is a perk and isn't about efficiency or cost reduction.

How is eating a perk?

you like it that way and that is all there is too it.

No, it works that way and that is all there is to it. Besides I would love to make my own food when on base instead of paying the ridiculous sums of money for rations but if I don't have the ability to cook in barracks, and the town is too far away to eat out as well as too expensive messes would stick around.

its not like you are being fed hardtack, that worked longer than canada was a nation

What are you talking about?

if canada wanted it could train everyone for mainntaining and flight. they just don't want to.

1) not likely as even nations such as Israel and Switzerland have not managed to accomplish what you are proposing I doubt Canada can do it.

2) There is no reason for such an extreme unless we would like to compete with the US in military strength and that will just bury is in debt for no gain.

its not about need though don't lie to people.

You are right, its not like pilots train for years to become proficient in their field, its not like technicians and engineers work for years to get fully qualified for their jobs... we can easily replace them by FORCING people to do their job.

planes are still falling out of the sky so it ain't perfection

And the older they get the more they fall, the F35 is not perfect simply because it was designed by human beings and operated and maintained by human beings and as such is susceptible to human error but the new plane is better than the 40 year old plane.

it ain't good but it is good enough

That is decided by looking at our needs and the competition.

room service makes panzys but thats war these days right

Room service? Ever gone outside your mother's basement? Ever met a real soldier? What on earth are you talking about?

its all about that clay at 500m or light at 5k

Again, what are you talking about?

[Wilber]

cooks are a need, what are you feeding the jets? if they can learn to fly a plane they can learn to use a frying pan.

personnel are needed but the skill level does not require solitary specialists it is nonsense,

the want makes the structure, its not a requirement. it is a want so you might as well call it that

?

[login]

Not a perk if its needed, the barracks do not allow for storage of food and most definitely do not allow stoves and such. In my years as a CF member I have been in only one barracks with a small refrigerator and a microwave... and this is not exactly the example of healthy eating.

Any suggestion as to how you can feed the soldiers then? As I said the barracks don't allow for cooking and seeing as many of these bases are in somewhat isolated areas soldiers would be reduced to eating rations year round which will end up being more expensive in the long run.

Where is the model of success that a democracy like Canada could follow and use, an example that the government and military has never seen since I assume if such an example were to exist and it were plausible we would be using it already.

How is eating a perk?

No, it works that way and that is all there is to it. Besides I would love to make my own food when on base instead of paying the ridiculous sums of money for rations but if I don't have the ability to cook in barracks, and the town is too far away to eat out as well as too expensive messes would stick around.

What are you talking about?

1) not likely as even nations such as Israel and Switzerland have not managed to accomplish what you are proposing I doubt Canada can do it.

2) There is no reason for such an extreme unless we would like to compete with the US in military strength and that will just bury is in debt for no gain.

You are right, its not like pilots train for years to become proficient in their field, its not like technicians and engineers work for years to get fully qualified for their jobs... we can easily replace them by FORCING people to do their job.

And the older they get the more they fall, the F35 is not perfect simply because it was designed by human beings and operated and maintained by human beings and as such is susceptible to human error but the new plane is better than the 40 year old plane.

That is decided by looking at our needs and the competition.

Room service? Ever gone outside your mother's basement? Ever met a real soldier? What on earth are you talking about?

Again, what are you talking about?

nonsense, you are telling me a barricks can fit a mini fridge and a microwave? or a bbq out front? there are even swiss stoves that are smaller than a coffee

maker, you are just soft. in the old day theyd be raising their own cows.

a fridge and microwave could fit under every bed no problem

do a google search on hardtack I can't beleive you are in the military and don't know the word, my guess is you do a d are playing dumb cause you arn't an officer.

I'm hoping you are joking, if you can't feed yourself.

civies do it all the time

when my dad was in the navy he even made his own booze and other peoples.

please tell me you are just playing stupid.

I'm not saying stop people training in a moc but I am saying there are some redundant primary mocs

they are cost runups just like just like the rcmps "paid nutritionists" at $140000/year each

I am distressed you are signals and don't know how to cook.

Edited December 23, 2012 by login

[nimiru]

nonsense, you are telling me a barricks can fit a mini fridge and a microwave? or a bbq out front? there are even swiss stoves that are smaller than a coffee

maker, you are just soft. in the old day theyd be raising their own cows.

a fridge and microwave could fit under every bed no problem

do a google search on hardtack I can't beleive you are in the military and don't know the word, my guess is you do a d are playing dumb cause you arn't an officer.

I'm hoping you are joking, if you can't feed yourself.

civies do it all the time

when my dad was in the navy he even made his own booze and other peoples.

please tell me you are just playing stupid.

I'm not saying stop people training in a moc but I am saying there are some redundant primary mocs

they are cost runups just like just like the rcmps "paid nutritionists" at $140000/year each

I am distressed you are signals and don't know how to cook.

wow some of the comments on this issue boggle the mind. Can you not stay on topic? It seems to me that the majority of you are more interested in talking to hear yourselves talk rather than producing any common sense. I say ditch the goddam things and pursue a more reasonable alternative and be done with it. eh?

[Signals.Cpl]

nonsense, you are telling me a barricks can fit a mini fridge and a microwave?

In many of the barracks a room that should fit 2 people has 4 or in some cases 8 people in it. The rooms with a mini fridge and a microwave were the 2 people per room and they only had two people, so for your theory to work we need to invest millions if not billions of dollars to upgrade the existing barracks CF wide to accommodate kitchens and then build more infrastructure to house the soldiers we had to remove from the barracks, so you are once again "solving" a problem that does not exist by throwing away billions to projects no one needs.

or a bbq out front?

That sure will help out when its -40 outside.

there are even swiss stoves that are smaller than a coffee

maker, you are just soft. in the old day theyd be raising their own cows.

So you wouldn't mind to live on a isolated base for 4 years eating only what you can cook on the swiss stove?

They might have raised their own cows but the cooks cooked them so it kinda does not help you.

a fridge and microwave could fit under every bed no problem

And where does your kit go?

do a google search on hardtack I can't beleive you are in the military and don't know the word, my guess is you do a d are playing dumb cause you arn't an officer.

I can't believe you continue to put your opinions out there when you are so obviously not in touch with reality let alone having knowledge about the military.

I'm hoping you are joking, if you can't feed yourself.

How did you deduct that I can't feed myself?

civies do it all the time

Do what all the time? Cook? In their kitchens? While you are suggesting we eliminate the kitchens and give soldiers a dinky little stove to cook their meals on. When you can walk the walk then you can talk, until then stay in your lane.

when my dad was in the navy he even made his own booze and other peoples.

Yeah, I'm sure he made his own booze on a ship...

please tell me you are just playing stupid.

No, I'm not playing stupid, I've been there and done that so I know what I am talking about when it comes to such BASIC facts about the military.

I'm not saying stop people training in a moc but I am saying there are some redundant primary mocs

There are no trades that I can think of that are redundant , I suggest you get some life experience before you decide to give out opinions that are not based on facts.

they are cost runups just like just like the rcmps "paid nutritionists" at $140000/year each

Get out of your house, go to the recruiting office sign on the dotted line spend the 3 years in some isolate base in the middle of nowhere and THEN tell me if the cooks and the mess is a waste or not, until then your opinion is worth less than a penny.

I am distressed you are signals and don't know how to cook.

I know how to cook, the whole point is that in barracks we don't have the means to cook.

[Signals.Cpl]

wow some of the comments on this issue boggle the mind. Can you not stay on topic? It seems to me that the majority of you are more interested in talking to hear yourselves talk rather than producing any common sense. I say ditch the goddam things and pursue a more reasonable alternative and be done with it. eh?

What is the reasonable alternative? An aircraft that will cost less while having the same abilities as the F35 and will leave us with the capability to work with our allies?

[Wilber]

do a google search on hardtack I can't beleive you are in the military and don't know the word, my guess is you do a d are playing dumb cause you arn't an officer.

Do a google search on scurvy.

[login]

In many of the barracks a room that should fit 2 people has 4 or in some cases 8 people in it. The rooms with a mini fridge and a microwave were the 2 people per room and they only had two people, so for your theory to work we need to invest millions if not billions of dollars to upgrade the existing barracks CF wide to accommodate kitchens and then build more infrastructure to house the soldiers we had to remove from the barracks, so you are once again "solving" a problem that does not exist by throwing away billions to projects no one needs.

if cf can build frastructure in bombed out third world countries why not in Canada?

most bases I've been on have lots of lodging including houses

while I do agree some facilities can use upgrading, the billions you state is just nonsense. the cf sold off lots of it facilities

That sure will help out when its -40 outside.

that is the softness I'm talking about.

So you wouldn't mind to live on a isolated base for 4 years eating only what you can cook on the swiss stove?

no. this isn't about me though, I am medically ineligible for service in the cf

They might have raised their own cows but the cooks cooked them so it kinda does not help you.

cooks are a perk. if you can't slaughter a cow how do you expect to slaughter the enemy?

And where does your kit go?

you want a pillow too right?

I can't believe you continue to put your opinions out there when you are so obviously not in touch with reality let alone having knowledge about the military.

How did you deduct that I can't feed myself?

the fact you need mama to make it for you.

Do what all the time? Cook? In their kitchens? While you are suggesting we eliminate the kitchens and give soldiers a dinky little stove to cook their meals on. When you can walk the walk then you can talk, until then stay in your lane.

not at all just the cooks.

Yeah, I'm sure he made his own booze on a ship...

No, I'm not playing stupid, I've been there and done that so I know what I am talking about when it comes to such BASIC facts about the military.

There are no trades that I can think of that are redundant , I suggest you get some life experience before you decide to give out opinions that are not based on facts.

as a primary moc?

this isn't saying training in secondary's isn't useful but as primary there are a few.

Get out of your house, go to the recruiting office sign on the dotted line spend the 3 years in some isolate base in the middle of nowhere and THEN tell me if the cooks and the mess is a waste or not, until then your opinion is worth less than a penny.

1. I'm not in my house 2. I'm not medically elibigible.

I know how to cook, the whole point is that in barracks we don't have the means to cook.

but it does mean having catering is a perk.

btw I havn't slept in my own bed in 4 months and most of that was concrete, or logs.

Edited December 24, 2012 by login

[Signals.Cpl]

if cf can build frastructure in bombed out third world countries why not in Canada?

Because there is no need for it, it will cost more to build new infrastructure and update the old buildings to meet the new demands than it would cost to run kitchens. Once again you are demonstrating your talent for "solving" a problem that does not exist by creating a worse problem.

most bases I've been on have lots of lodging including houses

And they are PMQ's not something the average Pte and Cpl gets to enjoy them.

while I do agree some facilities can use upgrading, the billions you state is just nonsense. the cf sold off lots of it facilities

They sell facilities they do not need you can't pick up a building and move it on the other side of the country because you need barracks there, can't post a thousand soldiers to Cold Lake and have them living in Edmonton because that is where you have available space...

that is the softness I'm talking about.

That is not softness that is common sense, when its -40 outside few people feel like firing up the BBQ.

no. this isn't about me though, I am medically ineligible for service in the cf

Yes it is, you have 0 experience with the CF and are spewing bullshit that you know nothing about...so it is about you. Soldiers, sailors and aircrew have enough hardships to deal with as it is without having the military introduce extra hardships.

cooks are a perk. if you can't slaughter a cow how do you expect to slaughter the enemy?

1) cooks are not a perk.

2) Who will do my job when I am killing a cow and preparing it for cooking?

3) I think there are laws about slaughtering the enemy... might want to read up on those if I were you. But then again, you support genocide so this is to be expected from you...

you want a pillow too right?

In my one bedroom apartment I have about half of my bedroom just with my kit, when in barracks I get only about half of my bedroom to store my kit as well as personal stuff, thats also where a desk and a bed are placed so that doesn't leave much room for anything else. Again if you don't know about you are talking about stay in your lane...

the fact you need mama to make it for you.

Oh really? And how did you come to that conclusion? I can and do cook for myself, but when I don't have the equipment I don't really have much option... or are you talking about your mom? Is she a cook on one of the bases? If so she is doing a good job...

not at all just the cooks.

You don't know what you are talking about, when you grow up then we can talk, when you experience military life THEN we can talk... until then stay in your non-existent lane of expertise.

as a primary moc?

this isn't saying training in secondary's isn't useful but as primary there are a few.

No, not really, there are some trades that could be reworked but for the majority they are useful...

1. I'm not in my house 2. I'm not medically elibigible.

Then stay in your lane.

but it does mean having catering is a perk.

They are not catering, they are running a mess an essential service, we want the soldiers to eat healthy and go back to work rather than eat garbage 24/7 because they don't have the time or means to cook and perform.

btw I havn't slept in my own bed in 4 months and most of that was concrete, or logs.

Congratulations this means you are qualified to be jtf2sniperninjaspecialforces...

[Wilber]

Cum on, we all know login survives on hard tack that he BBQ's in -40 weather. What's the matter with you pansies?