F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[DogOnPorch]

The Dassault Rafale is from the 1980s. This "new aircraft" already has a half-paid mortgage and teenaged kids.

[Guest Derek L]

I didn't mix anything up.

Rafale supercruises at mach 1.6 to 1.7.

What is the F35's fuel conservation speed?

I'll post it for you mach 1.1 1362 km/h

as opposed to the rafale's 1960 KM/H +

oh and

http://www.defensene...ered-AESA-Radar

Yeah, Km and miles........oops

Are you making up more facts now William?

[login]

Yeah, Km and miles........oops

Are you making up more facts now William?

Do you have two personalities or something?

[Argus]

So this will be a formality to shut everyone up. Good. I still wish we were buying 100 instead of 65.

^

[Argus]

The government should have clearly laid out the reasons before, as this is all really unnecessary.

The Conservative party doesn't know how to communicate with the public. It has NEVER known how to communicate with the public.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Conservative party doesn't know how to communicate with the public. It has NEVER known how to communicate with the public.

The F35 was the plane of choice, that is no longer the case. Where it goes from here is everyone's favorite exercise right now. Sadly I can convince nobody on here that the kind of money we are talking about, our tax dollars, are being shoveled out the door with this nonsense.

Where is the fire. The F18 is scheduled for replacement starting in 2020. WE are not at war, we have no immediate need. So what is the rush? This should be thought about very carefully. The investment could mean far more if it was managed in a manner designed to provide a service. The service is due to the citizens. Its their tax dollars that provide it. The aerospace industry is able to provide numerous spinoffs and benefits. This program should convince citizens that if the public goal is to provide the basis for a military industrial complex, then our citizens should benefit from it.

A 45 billion dollar investment into a Canadian designed military industrial complex will provide literally tens of thousands of direct jobs. It could be the backbone of an economic redesign for the nation. There is huge opportunity to be explored by simply rethinking the F35 program.

[Signals.Cpl]

The F35 was the plane of choice, that is no longer the case. Where it goes from here is everyone's favorite exercise right now. Sadly I can convince nobody on here that the kind of money we are talking about, our tax dollars, are being shoveled out the door with this nonsense.

Where is the fire. The F18 is scheduled for replacement starting in 2020. WE are not at war, we have no immediate need. So what is the rush? This should be thought about very carefully. The investment could mean far more if it was managed in a manner designed to provide a service. The service is due to the citizens. Its their tax dollars that provide it. The aerospace industry is able to provide numerous spinoffs and benefits. This program should convince citizens that if the public goal is to provide the basis for a military industrial complex, then our citizens should benefit from it.

A 45 billion dollar investment into a Canadian designed military industrial complex will provide literally tens of thousands of direct jobs. It could be the backbone of an economic redesign for the nation. There is huge opportunity to be explored by simply rethinking the F35 program.

And the fundamental problem with that is if we go down that route we will bear the full cost. Look at the cost of the F35 and the current situation, it is affordable because the research and development is spread out along over 3,000 aircraft, now imagine the same level of research and development being spread out on just 65 or 100 or even 200 fighters... and then you have to consider what happens with that investment when the RCAF gets its fighters, do we replace them every 10 years just to keep the industry going? How can we compete with the current established competition and sell enough to just barely break even?

There is no point in setting up the infrastructure and the intellectual power in an industry just to research our own plane build it and shut the industry down or sell it off after the order is done.

[Argus]

Where is the fire. The F18 is scheduled for replacement starting in 2020.

Well, you don't just walk into Wal-Mart and grab a few dozen off the shelves. It takes years to set up and run a selection process, a year or more to negotiate an agreement with a vendor, and then several years of waiting before you can begin to receive the aircraft.

[DogOnPorch]

There is no point in setting up the infrastructure and the intellectual power in an industry just to research our own plane build it and shut the industry down or sell it off after the order is done.

Not to mention is has to be good. Really good. Not just flying...not just a jet. It has to be able to fight and shoot down the best. It has to be able to bomb with laser accuracy. It has to be a killer. Designed for killing.

Second best in the jet fighter biz = smoking crater.

[Wilber]

Two different machines. The F-35 is a bigger aircraft that can carry twice the payload of the Rafale while carrying 80% more internal fuel. The Rafale gets its range by carrying a lot of external fuel. As far as supercruise goes, India is looking at the Rafale and is finding its claims of supercruise capability suspect. Regardless, the range numbers given for these aircraft will not be supercruise range. All supercruise means is the ability go supersonic without afterburning. It costs fuel to go faster no matter what kind of vehicle it is.

[kward]

Care to elaborate on those ways that we can protect ourselves without spending money?

I've already elaborated on this in previous posts. You protect yourself by talking, befriending, and trading with nations...by maintaining diplomatic channels...not putting up walls to anyone willing to talk turkey.

Much of this can be done in the private sector, and the costs therefore to government are small. Of course diplomats would have to be paid, none of the above comes free. And I don't advocate spending zero dollars...I am saying spending tens of millions or even billions on something that cannot ever be achieved is a massive waste of money. That should be readily apparent to anyone not invested in gear porn.

[kward]

100 could allow is to equip 3 squadrons, I didn't just pick a number out of thin air.

Why stop at 3 squadrons? It's a big country. Maybe 6 squadrons would be better? Or 12?

[Guest Derek L]

Well, you don't just walk into Wal-Mart and grab a few dozen off the shelves. It takes years to set up and run a selection process, a year or more to negotiate an agreement with a vendor, and then several years of waiting before you can begin to receive the aircraft.

Exactly, we already ran that race and ended up with an aircraft with the same or worse performance numbers then the F-4 Phantom, but with a unaffordable price tag………..Or look at the French, whom already have an established military aerospace industry, with concurrent design and development of fighter aircraft, having as an end result an aircraft (Dassault Rafale) costing over 50 billion in developmental cost (Not procurement), over 30 years spent on development (and it’s still going) resulting in an aircraft that their military can’t afford (in significant numbers) and nobody other than the Indians wants (and of course French bribery laws differ then most civilized nations….Google Serge Dassault & Bribery)

Edited December 9, 2012 by Derek L

[kward]

Canada doesn't currently require, nor would require with an F-35 purchase, the WiPak kit........You'd best watch with the insults William.

Versus:

Now behave yourself Mr Ashley.

Gear porn. I certainly hope the Canadian government isn't wasting taxpayer dollars on all that crap.

[kward]

The F35 was the plane of choice, that is no longer the case. Where it goes from here is everyone's favorite exercise right now. Sadly I can convince nobody on here that the kind of money we are talking about, our tax dollars, are being shoveled out the door with this nonsense.

Where is the fire. The F18 is scheduled for replacement starting in 2020. WE are not at war, we have no immediate need. So what is the rush? This should be thought about very carefully. The investment could mean far more if it was managed in a manner designed to provide a service. The service is due to the citizens. Its their tax dollars that provide it. The aerospace industry is able to provide numerous spinoffs and benefits. This program should convince citizens that if the public goal is to provide the basis for a military industrial complex, then our citizens should benefit from it.

A 45 billion dollar investment into a Canadian designed military industrial complex will provide literally tens of thousands of direct jobs. It could be the backbone of an economic redesign for the nation. There is huge opportunity to be explored by simply rethinking the F35 program.

Yes, lets take on a military industrial complex that erodes our sovereignty, and bankrupts us slowly as money is removed from the private sector immorally and allocated to the public sector to pay for war machines in the interest of a "we know best" mentality.

Great idea.

[Guest Derek L]

Two different machines. The F-35 is a bigger aircraft that can carry twice the payload of the Rafale while carrying 80% more internal fuel. The Rafale gets its range by carrying a lot of external fuel. As far as supercruise goes, India is looking at the Rafale and is finding its claims of supercruise capability suspect. Regardless, the range numbers given for these aircraft will not be supercruise range. All supercruise means is the ability go supersonic without afterburning. It costs fuel to go faster no matter what kind of vehicle it is.

Exactly, and if “Supercruise” is a requirement, Lockheed with the release of more declassified performance numbers of the F-35, has already indicated that the F-35 can “do it to”……………And the Indians are certainly finding out “issues” with the Rafale, so much so that the Brazilians are also slowly backing away well thanking the French for the Foch and trying to figure out if rebuilt USN Hornets will work on her.

[Smallc]

Why stop at 3 squadrons?

3 would give us the ability to perform our role at home, and at the same time deploy an entire squadron. Hence, 3.

[Smallc]

So, Thomas Mulcair says that the F-35 can't work in the arctic....

[Signals.Cpl]

I've already elaborated on this in previous posts. You protect yourself by talking, befriending, and trading with nations...by maintaining diplomatic channels...not putting up walls to anyone willing to talk turkey.

Much of this can be done in the private sector, and the costs therefore to government are small. Of course diplomats would have to be paid, none of the above comes free. And I don't advocate spending zero dollars...I am saying spending tens of millions or even billions on something that cannot ever be achieved is a massive waste of money. That should be readily apparent to anyone not invested in gear porn.

Explain to me how much we have to endure between the point we disarm and the point everybody loves us, you make it sound like we can throw our weapons down and everyone will automatically love us.

[kward]

3 would give us the ability to perform our role at home, and at the same time deploy an entire squadron. Hence, 3.

Define: "perform our role". Deploy a squadron? Where? Why? How much is all of this going to cost?

[Smallc]

Define: "perform our role". Deploy a squadron? Where? Why? How much is all of this going to cost?

Well, instead of $40B over 40 years, I'd say it will cost about $60B over 40 years. I support that.

[kward]

Explain to me how much we have to endure between the point we disarm and the point everybody loves us, you make it sound like we can throw our weapons down and everyone will automatically love us.

Yes, that's exactly what I said, we throw our weapons down and everyone will automatically love us. Give me a break.

The goal is not to be loved, that is silly. No one is ever going to be liked by everyone. But you learn not to solve your differences with violence or force of the threat thereof, and you evolve, and you make your citizens safer in the process.

[kward]

Well, instead of $40B over 40 years, I'd say it will cost about $60B over 40 years. I support that.

$1.5 billion dollars per year. To do...what exactly?

[Guest Derek L]

3 would give us the ability to perform our role at home, and at the same time deploy an entire squadron. Hence, 3.

Nope, it would allow us a third of a squadron deployed (indefinitely) without effecting training and our other (NORAD) commitments………The last time we could deploy and sustain a squadron was when we still had the Freedom Fighters…….

[Guest Derek L]

So, Thomas Mulcair says that the F-35 can't work in the arctic....

He'd better tell the Americans, Danes and Norwegians