wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Not all low-skilled labour pays a living wage . . . except in the public sector where the taxpayer foots the bill. you can't keep reliable staff without a living wage...I know of restaurants that closed because they couldn't keep staffed, wages were too low...if a facility has minimum wage they're generally staffed by students who have home financial support...an adult with a family to support, rare...you can't run a school or public facility without reliable staff... Edited December 6, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Not in this instance. The Board HAS TO PAY whatever the Union charges. Which is the outrage of the situation since the Board is broke. You keep talk about being competitive. There's nothing competitive about what's going on in the TDSB. and why do you begrudge people getting paid union rates? electricians unionized or not will generally charge the same amount...MD's get rates negotiated with government, ceo's get paid by whatever the market will bear, why the hostility towards unions for doing what every other occupation does... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 the market does decide, I hire plumbers often, those who I think I'm stupid and give me estimates of $450 per hour don't get my business, so they obviously sit at home more than those who give industry/market rates...there is perception that all contractors are successful but many fail because they are out to lunch when it comes to pricing...charge too much and they don't work go bankrupt, charge too little and they lose money and go bankrupt... Sure. Let me clarify. when some people say "let the market decide", theya ren't quite talking about what you're talking about. They're talking about decisions made by human resources staff, based on projections sent down to them form above, based either on shareholder or upper management decisions. That's not "the market"; and it's "the invisible hand." It's executive decisions. It's not that some entity called "the market" has magically determined that Walmart employees should get paid less than costco empoyees for the same work. Heck, costco doesn't have nearly the market share of Walmart, so that argument fails even by the stupid criteria some people try to pull as "logic." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) and why do you begrudge people getting paid union rates? electricians unionized or not will generally charge the same amount...MD's get rates negotiated with government, ceo's get paid by whatever the market will bear, why the hostility towards unions for doing what every other occupation does... It's not just any Union. It's one Union. No bidding process, the Union can charge what they want. If you knew a client had to deal with you because their employer says they have to, what motivation do you have to be competitive? There is overwhelming evidence from the Star (A left-leaning publication BTW) Investigation that this Union isn't charging a competitive wage. Other boards do a bidding process like you've said you do with the contracts you get. Edited December 6, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Let me ask you: at what point would you start to suspect that the workers were simply not providing enough value for the money, and what would you suggest be done in response ? that's up to the company that work for...I worked a number of years for a company that kept people around that I thought were a total waste of skin and money, slow, incompetent, stupid, unreliable yet they never got fired... the boss would say not everyone is equal in ability, we need the man power and even incompetent have a right to earn a living..it averaged out, the good workers reduced cost and supplied the profit, the weak workers supplied much needed manpower.....but when there was a work slowdown they were the first to be sent home... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I think this excerpt from the article in the OP highlights the problem more than citing different charges without a proper explanation. Last week, the Star asked the school board to provide an explanation for some of the more glaring costs, including the work done at Emery Collegiate. The TDSB is preparing a response, which it estimates will be done in January.Meanwhile, reacting to an audit and information earlier unearthed by the Star, the provincial education ministry has offered to assist the TDSB in fixing the problem. A PricewaterhouseCoopers report recommends closing schools and contracting out some jobs. There is also a police investigation underway, looking at allegations of fraud involving some former TDSB workers. The Toronto public school board is in a cash crunch. It estimates $3 billion of work needs to be done to bring its aging schools up to an acceptable level. About 900 workers belonging to the Maintenance and Skilled Trades Council carry out the work as part of a long-standing contract that is radically different from many other boards in Ontario, which contract out many jobs to the lowest bidders. Schools also have janitorial staff, which could do the smaller jobs that have been routinely assigned to the council workers. Teachers have contacted the Star saying they would like to put up a shelf, a coat hook or attach a pencil sharpener but believe that they are not allowed to. “I was told flat out by my school that we are not allowed to do this work,” said one teacher, speaking on condition of anonymity because the teacher fears job repercussions for talking Edited December 6, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Sure. Let me clarify. when some people say "let the market decide", theya ren't quite talking about what you're talking about. They're talking about decisions made by human resources staff, based on projections sent down to them form above, based either on shareholder or upper management decisions. That's not "the market"; and it's "the invisible hand." It's executive decisions. It's not that some entity called "the market" has magically determined that Walmart employees should get paid less than costco empoyees for the same work. Heck, costco doesn't have nearly the market share of Walmart, so that argument fails even by the stupid criteria some people try to pull as "logic." it's still a market decision, the executive makes the call based on what they think the market(their clientele) will pay...costco and walmart are two very different operations, costco isn't really competing in walmart's market segment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Costco isn't really competing in walmart's market segment... It kind of is actually. Costco specializes in bulk purchases but lots of the stuff you can buy in Costco you can buy in Walmart. In the US Walmart owns Sam's Club which is like Costco. They aren't the same but they do compete with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I think this excerpt from the article in the OP highlights the problem more than citing different charges without a proper explanation. flipping that scenario around what would teachers think if the maintenance staff began instructing students? why is it okay for you to do someone else's job and not for them to do yours? what if the maintenance worker could do your job(or try) for a considerable savings in wages... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) flipping that scenario around what would teachers think if the maintenance staff began instructing students? why is it okay for you to do someone else's job and not for them to do yours? what if the maintenance worker could do your job(or try) for a considerable savings in wages... You're really going to equate teaching to screwing in a coat-hook or a pencil sharpener? Edited December 6, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 It kind of is actually. Costco specializes in bulk purchases but lots of the stuff you can buy in Costco you can buy in Walmart. In the US Walmart owns Sam's Club which is like Costco. They aren't the same but they do compete with each other. and the type of people walmart has working? the turn over is high and these are generally people who only work part time, don't really need a "real job", walmart turn over is very high I don't see familiar faces...I go to my local costco and there are employees there I've seen for a number of years..costco prefers to keep it's employees, pays them a better wage and it's still very profitable,... walmart is for cheap items, small sales...costco fewer trips but big purchases... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 You're really going to equate teaching to screwing in a coat-hook or a pencil sharpener? yup, my son's jr high has a carpenter teaching an IA class... I did elite coaching for 25 years so you bet I can teach a phys-ed class as well as a phys-ed teacher...and I'm sure there are number of electricians that could handle a science class... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 It's not just any Union. It's one Union. No bidding process, the Union can charge what they want. If you knew a client had to deal with you because their employer says they have to, what motivation do you have to be competitive? There is overwhelming evidence from the Star (A left-leaning publication BTW) Investigation that this Union isn't charging a competitive wage. Other boards do a bidding process like you've said you do with the contracts you get. I don't the situation there so it's hard for me to comment, but unions workers get paid the same whether they work for public facilities of private operations...so a union electrician will get the same pay working in the school or in mine...opening up bids to other union companies would be fair...non union company bids would need to be carefully monitored and kept to the same standards because they tend to take shortcuts which isn't acceptable in public facilities, particularly schools ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I don't the situation there so it's hard for me to comment, but unions workers get paid the same whether they work for public facilities of private operations...so a union electrician will get the same pay working in the school or in mine...opening up bids to other union companies would be fair...non union company bids would need to be carefully monitored and kept to the same standards because they tend to take shortcuts which isn't acceptable in public facilities, particularly schools ... Well this instance is unique because all the other boards in the province allow for bids. Again it wouldn't be news if the board wasn't flat broke. They could do numerous things to help with their costs but their trustees refuse to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Well this instance is unique because all the other boards in the province allow for bids. Again it wouldn't be news if the board wasn't flat broke. They could do numerous things to help with their costs but their trustees refuse to. well where mrs wyly works they have union based "in house" maintenance work crew but they also contract work to outside bidders...and installing a pencil sharper I'd charge $150, that's 2- 2.5 hours of my day-travel time, fuel, picking up sharpener, install, warranty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 and why do you begrudge people getting paid union rates? electricians unionized or not will generally charge the same amount...MD's get rates negotiated with government, ceo's get paid by whatever the market will bear, why the hostility towards unions for doing what every other occupation does... Fiscal management is the responsibility of all of us, if it's the public purse. Who cares if it's too much is not an answer. The market will bring down private companies and individuals who overcharge for their services - for public services, it's up to us to determine what is too much. If it was only twice the cost of private services, that would be one thing - but it's many many times that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 that's up to the company that work for...I worked a number of years for a company that kept people around that I thought were a total waste of skin and money, slow, incompetent, stupid, unreliable yet they never got fired... the boss would say not everyone is equal in ability, we need the man power and even incompetent have a right to earn a living..it averaged out, the good workers reduced cost and supplied the profit, the weak workers supplied much needed manpower.....but when there was a work slowdown they were the first to be sent home... The company survived but didn't do as well as it could have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 The company survived but didn't do as well as it could have done. the owner is well off and retired, there are more important things in life than greed and profit....could it have done better? that's hard to say, it had work when many others went bankrupt in tough times, it always had the manpower to handle the multiple corporate clients and still provide excellent service and quality... if it had only a small select crew it wouldn't had as many clients to keep that crew working if they had work stoppages, without constant work crew would have gone elsewhere to find work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 the owner is well off and retired, there are more important things in life than greed and profit....could it have done better? that's hard to say, it had work when many others went bankrupt in tough times, it always had the manpower to handle the multiple corporate clients and still provide excellent service and quality... if it had only a small select crew it wouldn't had as many clients to keep that crew working if they had work stoppages, without constant work crew would have gone elsewhere to find work... Ok.... good story but it doesn't apply to what is happening when a public institution can't manage costs and they skyrocket while quality plummets. People on the left side of the dial need to care about these things - it's our house we need to keep it clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Ok.... good story but it doesn't apply to what is happening when a public institution can't manage costs and they skyrocket while quality plummets. People on the left side of the dial need to care about these things - it's our house we need to keep it clean. which brings me back to poor information, you're making judgements without the facts... just hearsay by people who may be out of touch and ill-informed, teachers are not qualified to make judgements on how much construction procedures should cost and neither is Joe Public..here I am someone who is qualified and I wouldn't/can't because I don't know the details, a price and a very brief job description tells me nothing about the legitimacy of the cost....the costs may be out of control or they may be within reason no one has provided evidence of either scenario, hearsay just doesn't cut it... Edited December 7, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1218387--tdsb-workers-given-253-000-in-gift-cards-by-union THIS smacks of unions corruption and bribery. Absolutely sickening.... I KNEW this rung a bell. Simply disgusting and enough to shut this slumlord union crappie down. This is ontario version of corruption in QC! Yes, wyly... Read it prior to posting please. Bribery... Corruption qt the unions and tdsb. And you belittled Rob Ford? Shame on you for backing this. Yes, thank me later for digging this up. The CBC and the star would not connect these dots publicly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 which brings me back to poor information, you're making judgements without the facts... just hearsay by people who may be out of touch and ill-informed, teachers are not qualified to make judgements on how much construction procedures should cost and neither is Joe Public..here I am someone who is qualified and I wouldn't/can't because I don't know the details, a price and a very brief job description tells me nothing about the legitimacy of the cost....the costs may be out of control or they may be within reason no one has provided evidence of either scenario, hearsay just doesn't cut it... Who WOULD you accept as an authority on these things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) an independent general contractor and relevant sub-trades on site inspection... Edited December 7, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Do you do landscaping too? I have a bid out to thousands.. Ur kidding right? Homes on homes shuns these characters! No mention of license? fly by night or during daylight? Edited December 7, 2012 by Fletch 27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Gotta be union however Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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