Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1298256--tdsb-s-143-school-pencil-sharpener-just-the-beginning More insane charges the TDSB paid to do simple jobs. I think the teachers should stfu about getting more money from the province and ask the board why they're shelling out this much money for tasks people could do themselves or someone else could do for a fraction of the price. Wait these guys are in a Union so that'll never happen. SOLIDARITY!!!! Here’s a short tour of some jobs that caught our eye. The TDSB has not responded yet to questions about these charges. • $147.88 to cut one key at the board’s “East Education office.” • $167 for a job at R.H. McGregor Elementary School described as “four guys needed to move a bench.” • $118 to install a pencil sharpener at Vaughan Road Academy (this is cheaper than the $143 sharpener installation the Star found earlier at another school). • $190 to replace a broken toilet seat in the staff washroom at Kensington Community School. That price included the seat, which was $126. • $312 to replace two malfunctioning smoke detectors at Highfield Junior School, plus $58 for new detectors. The data indicates this important work took seven days from when job was requested to completed. • $810 to “remove unpleasant words on (washroom) stall” at Elkhorn Public School. • $1,614 (representing 49 hours for a painter) to paint a vice-principal’s office at the Etobicoke School of the Arts. Materials were $82, likely two cans of paint. • $2,441 to install a whiteboard on the wall at Rouge Valley Public School, plus the $127 cost of the board. • $2,670 to replace “burned-out bulbs in lunchroom” at H.J. Alexander Community School. That job took 70 hours, and the bulbs were an additional $337. The keycutting one is the most hilarious one. To think that there'd be a grievance filed if a person just went to Home Depot to get a key cut for $5. Instead you have to pay $150 to have a Union guy do it. The LCBO thinks those are some steep markups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 What does this have to do with the teachers ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 What does this have to do with the teachers ? Nothing, but how can the TDSB cry poor when they're shelling out these fees. There's no way the Province should give the board a penny more to pay their bills, they should probably be paying less if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Nothing, but how can the TDSB cry poor when they're shelling out these fees. There's no way the Province should give the board a penny more to pay their bills, they should probably be paying less if anything. Sounds like straight up fraud. The police should be investigating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Nothing, but how can the TDSB cry poor when they're shelling out these fees. There's no way the Province should give the board a penny more to pay their bills, they should probably be paying less if anything. being a general contractor I could break the costs for you and they're reasonable...there are a couple that seem high(49 hrs to paint the office for one) but without knowing the details such as the room size, windows/doors, furnishings, type of coating and how it was was applied etc. it's impossible to judge if it was high or not...and if there are alterations to something covered by strict building codes like electrical or plumbing the alterations often need to brought up to the new code standards, sometimes you wish you didn't start those renovations/repairs... people think because they can run down to Rona and cut a key for a couple of bucks so that's all it should cost... but when your hiring someone to do it that person has to take time out of their day which includes travel time, mark up on materials, and if they're an employee they're billed out at double wages to cover benefits and profit, and the employee needs to be paid a livable wage otherwise they won't do it, no one works for free... Edited December 6, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 being a general contractor I could break the costs for you and they're reasonable...there are a couple that seem high(49 hrs to paint the office for one) but without knowing the details such as the room size, windows/doors, furnishings, type of coating and how it was was applied etc. it's impossible to judge if it was high or not... people think because they can run down to Rona and cut a key for a couple of bucks so that's all it should cost... but when your hiring someone to do it that person has to take time out of their day which includes travel time, mark up on materials, and if they're an employee they're billed out at double wages to cover benefits and profit, and the employee needs to be paid a livable wage otherwise they won't do it, no one works for free... Then the policy should be changed. It's fraud. There's no reason those things should cost that much. You don't HAVE TO pay union people to paint a room or cut a key or move a bench. If you do then it's a problem with the system and it should be changed. I could get a reputable, insured guy to paint my house for less than $1,500 I bet and it wouldn't take him 50 hours. Replacing a toilet seat involved unscrewing two screws from each side of the seat and screwing in the big plastic screws from the new seat. Takes 5 minutes or less. Why should a toilet seat cost $100 plus? Is it made of Silver? No justification for this. Especially when the board is crying broke and is about to get taken over by the Province again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) BTW $150 is a day's wage for many people so if a person can charge that for doing less than an hours work then they're charging way more than they're labour is worth. Why does it take four people to move a bench? is it 800 pounds? What they should do is have some guy on staff like say a "Janitor" that can do odd jobs around the school and that's part of his/her salary. If they have to bring guys in for any odd job then WTF does the Janitor do other than clean? Edited December 6, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I could get a reputable, insured guy to paint my house for less than $1,500 I bet and it wouldn't take him 50 hours. IF you live in a dog house sized house...maybe.But it would be a shitty job no matter how you looked at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) IF you live in a dog house sized house...maybe. But it would be a shitty job no matter how you looked at it. So 50 hours to paint a room is reasonable? That's more than week if you worked 8 hours a day! And that doesn't include paint. Edited December 6, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 If it was the Sistine Chapel, maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 So 50 hours to paint a room is reasonable? Yes and no. What size? Whats to be done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 The TDSB is ONLY alowed to send our RFQ's to UNIONIZED contractors.. Other regions like Halton can send to Union or Non-Union.. THIS is the reason TDSB is bleeding Toronto Dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Yes and no. What size? Whats to be done? If the Vice-Principal's office is so large that it takes a week to paint, then there's a whole different problem. Especially when only 2 cans of paint were required. It took me 2.5 gallons of paint to do the kitchen and front lobby in my townhome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 four people traveling to the site that will be billed as one trip in one trip out, 2hrs x 4, that may seem unreasonable but some people spend half their 8 hr day just traveling from one location to another do you expect them to only be paid for 4hrs work per day? cost of vehicle if it's company truck, additional time to pick up supplies if needed... plus time on site, you don't know the weight of the bench, how far it's being moved, was it bolted to the ground? does it need to be bolted in it's new location? if it's bolted you'll require hammer drill if it's concrete, anchors, new bolts, repairs to old location if necessary... without all the specifics it's impossible to say whether it was unreasonable cost or not...if it required 4 men my impression would be that it was more than a simple move... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) four people traveling to the site that will be billed as one trip in one trip out, 2hrs x 4, that may seem unreasonable but some people spend half their 8 hr day just traveling from one location to another do you expect them to only be paid for 4hrs work per day? cost of vehicle if it's company truck, additional time to pick up supplies if needed... plus time on site, you don't know the weight of the bench, how far it's being moved, was it bolted to the ground? does it need to be bolted in it's new location? if it's bolted you'll require hammer drill if it's concrete, anchors, new bolts, repairs to old location if necessary... without all the specifics it's impossible to say whether it was unreasonable cost or not...if it required 4 men my impression would be that it was more than a simple move... I suspect it didn't require 4 men, but who knows. The problem here is that simple jobs can't be done by people in the school. The fact that you HAVE TO farm out the service to a contractor for simple odd-jobs is ridiculous. Apparently the Janitor can't do any of this. He has to go to a computer and order the work to be done and someone will be sent out. The article said it took SEVEN EFFIN DAYS to get someone to come out to replace two smoke alarms. Edited December 6, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) If the Vice-Principal's office is so large that it takes a week to paint, then there's a whole different problem. Especially when only 2 cans of paint were required. It took me 2.5 gallons of paint to do the kitchen and front lobby in my townhome. my principals office in grade school was actually two rooms filled with furniture and storage cabinets, size of the room is not indicative of the amount of work required, a small closet can takes as much time as the large room attached to it...what if the office was sprayed? what if the material was a two component glaze requiring a conventional spray unit... all the shelving desks file cabinets would need to removed... window coverings if any....room would need to be completely masked...any repairs need to be done? electrical fixtures removed and replaced?...ceiling height? scaffolding?...a dollar amount and job description done tells you nothing about how much work is involved... Edited December 6, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Then the policy should be changed. It's fraud. There's no reason those things should cost that much. You don't HAVE TO pay union people to paint a room or cut a key or move a bench. If you do then it's a problem with the system and it should be changed. I could get a reputable, insured guy to paint my house for less than $1,500 I bet and it wouldn't take him 50 hours. Replacing a toilet seat involved unscrewing two screws from each side of the seat and screwing in the big plastic screws from the new seat. Takes 5 minutes or less. Why should a toilet seat cost $100 plus? Is it made of Silver? No justification for this. Especially when the board is crying broke and is about to get taken over by the Province again. $1,500! for an entire house and reputable? good luck with that...$4-5000 is more likely...30 yrs ago I recall having the exterior of a home painted for 13K, it was large home and it took a crew of 4 two weeks, labour intensive...toilet seat, 2hrs travel time, toilets have corresponding seats, in a school it will be commercial grade to withstand high use...toilets vary in price from the $150 type you find at rona(crap) , typical commercial toilet can cost 600-1,500, real high end toilets can go up to 12K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) my prinicpals office in grade school was actually two rooms filled with furniture and storage cabinets, size of the room is not indiitive of the amount of work required, a small closet can takes as much time as the large room attached to it...what if the office was sprayed? what if the material was a two component glaze requiring a conventional spray unit... all the shelving desks file cabinets would need to removed... window coverings if any....room would need to be completely masked...any repairs need to be done? electrical fixtures removed and replaced?...ceiling height? scaffolding?...a dollar amount and job description done tells you nothing about how much work is involved... Or it could have been a 4 wall room with one window. I think the time billed is more of the problem. I remember I called a Washing Machine Repairman to my place because it stopped working suddenly. I thought the thing was broken and needed fixing. He showed up and found out the Machine simply blew a fuse, easy fix but I had to drop $80 for him to do that for me because of the time. One time my Furnace stopped working. I had no clue why so I called the people that do the maintenance on my furnace. He found out the pilot light went out. He taught me how to re-light and charged me $150 (said he could have charged me more) It's fine because the workings of a Washing Machine and a Furnace are beyond my understanding and I was happy the problems weren't worse. So I have no problem with contractors getting good pay for their time. What we have here though, in most of the cases cited, are simple tasks that anyone with any semblance of home improvement knowledge can do but aren't allowed to do because Union Labour has to do it. And they can charge whatever they want because the school can't shop around for a better deal. It would be alright if the Board wasn't crying broke but it is. Edited December 6, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 $1,500! for an entire house and reputable? good luck with that...$4-5000 is more likely...30 yrs ago I recall having the exterior of a home painted for 13K, it was large home and it took a crew of 4 two weeks, labour intensive... toilet seat, 2hrs travel time, toilets have corresponding seats, in a school it will be commercial grade to withstand high use...toilets vary in price from the $150 type you find at rona(crap) , typical commercial toilet can cost 600-1,500, real high end toilets can go up to 12K I got my entire house 3200Sq feet painted for 1400 including paint (3 guys, Sherwin Williams paint).. Seem like with your price structure your not very busy or competative! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 $1,500! for an entire house and reputable? good luck with that...$4-5000 is more likely...30 yrs ago I recall having the exterior of a home painted for 13K, it was large home and it took a crew of 4 two weeks, labour intensive... toilet seat, 2hrs travel time, toilets have corresponding seats, in a school it will be commercial grade to withstand high use...toilets vary in price from the $150 type you find at rona(crap) , typical commercial toilet can cost 600-1,500, real high end toilets can go up to 12K Dude you're just coming up with hypothetical ways these charges can be justified, you're missing the point here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I got my entire house 3200Sq feet painted for 1400 including paint (3 guys, Sherwin Williams paint).. Seem like with your price structure your not very busy or competative! Not that ist relative to this discussion......but I call BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Or it could have been a 4 wall room with one window. I think the time billed is more of the problem. but my point being which I think you understand, you can't claim it's excessive without knowing the details of the job...an ideal office two coats of latex paint, no furniture, nothing to mask and cover, brush and roll, travel time, pick up supplies, no repairs and it's a one day job...but from experience I know it wasn't that easy, it rarely is...I remember I called a Washing Machine Repairman to my place because it stopped working suddenly. I thought the thing was broken and needed fixing. He showed up and found out the Machine simply blew a fuse, easy fix but I had to drop $80 for him to do that for me because of the time. One time my Furnace stopped working. I had no clue why so I called the people that do the maintenance on my furnace. He found out the pilot light went out. He taught me how to re-light and charged me $150 (said he could have charged me more)you got off lightly in both casest So I have no problem with contractors getting good pay for their time. that's good because they live in the same city as you and have the cost of living, as a contractor I need to drive a reliable truck $ 45K(I'd rather have a car) that uses fuel at an amazing rate, I can spend an entire day driving from job to job just looking at people's problems and not make a cent(who pays for that), and I need to keep ten's of thousands in equipment that comes out my pocket...contractors deserve every cent they make....What we have here though, in most of the cases cited, are simple tasks that anyone with any semblance of home improvement knowledge can do but aren't allowed to do because Union Labour has to do it. And they can charge whatever they want because the school can't shop around for a better deal. much of my of work comes from repairing "simple tasks" that some homeowner thought they could do...a lot of my work also comes for repairing work done by professionals too, "simple work" is an opinion not reality.... Edited December 6, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I got my entire house 3200Sq feet painted for 1400 including paint (3 guys, Sherwin Williams paint).. Seem like with your price structure your not very busy or competative! ya, I've seen those awesome paint jobs, and I've seen homeowners whimper when they get another 10K bill to fix the original "great deal"...you're not getting a professional job for 1400 including paint no less...500-600 for paint/supplies, so 800-900 for three men and at those rates and time spent you didn't hire painters, you got monkeys with a brush...even 15 years ago 3200sq ft would have cost 6400 from a professional crewI'm very competitive, usually I'm low, even my customers have told me I don't charge enough... Edited December 6, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 ya, I've seen those awesome paint jobs, and I've seen homeowners whimper when they get another 10K bill to fix the original "great deal"...your not getting a professional job for 1400 including paint no less...500-600 for paint/supplies, so 800-900 for three men and at those rates and time spent you didn't hire painters, you got monkeys with a brush...even 15 years ago 3200sq ft would have cost 6400 from a professional crew I'm very competitive, usually I'm low, even my customers have told me I don't charge enough... I only buy the finest and pay for it.. I can afford it.. But i can avoid a price gouge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 This ... I only buy the finest and pay for it.. I can afford it.. But i can avoid a price gouge ...and this...I got my entire house 3200Sq feet painted for 1400 including paint (3 guys, Sherwin Williams paint).. Seem like with your price structure your not very busy or competative..dont gibe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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