wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 "you get what you pay for" is an accurate cliche....tv's Holmes on Homes is an accurate depiction of what happens when it's not done right... when it is done right it's very expensive but it's far more expensive when it's not done right the first time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 being a general contractor I could break the costs for you and they're reasonable... Wyly - there have been complaints about this issue for a long time and the TDSB simply replied by saying they were aware of it. I know teachers who complain about neglect, and an untouchable union of people who don't do their work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 "you get what you pay for" is an accurate cliche....tv's Holmes on Homes is an accurate depiction of what happens when it's not done right... when it is done right it's very expensive but it's far more expensive when it's not done right the first time.... I guess those 2600 dollar lightbulbs must REALLY be done right! Torqued to spec, dusted, They must cast some nice light! That key that was cut.. Must be one hell of a nice key! Must be plasma-cut to perfection... Or its Union waste... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Wyly - there have been complaints about this issue for a long time and the TDSB simply replied by saying they were aware of it. I know teachers who complain about neglect, and an untouchable union of people who don't do their work. aware it's an issue or that there are concerns about price/value....unless you know the entire story more than a dollar figure and a very vague job descriptions your dealing with perception/sticker shock....it's just like our discussions on healthcare, people on the outside have a perception of what's going on but in reality have very little idea of how things work...and another common theme, everyone believes their work is more valuable than everyone else "I went to uni so deserve more than that guy who only went to a technical college"...I the appreciate the work teachers do I have good idea of what's involved and I don't question their knowledge and wages while many on this forum think they do nothing to earn their money...contractors/tradespeople have the same issues, people on the outside know little or nothing how things are done and come up with all kinds of erroneous perceptions of things are done and should be done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) aware it's an issue or that there are concerns about price/value....unless you know the entire story more than a dollar figure and a very vague job descriptions your dealing with perception/sticker shock... .it's just like our discussions on healthcare, people on the outside have a perception of what's going on but in reality have very little idea of how things work...and another common theme, everyone believes their work is more valuable than everyone else "I went to uni so deserve more than that guy who only went to a technical college"...I the appreciate the work teachers do I have good idea of what's involved and I don't question their knowledge and wages while many on this forum think they do nothing to earn their money...contractors/tradespeople have the same issues, people on the outside know little or nothing how things are done and come up with all kinds of erroneous perceptions of things are done and should be done... That's not what the issue is here. Regarding teachers, they are fairly compensated for what they do. But they're throwing a public temper tantrum now because the Province, which is broke, want to pair back some of their bennies. In 2008/9 when many people were being asked to take Furlough's the teacher's got double digit raises. The issue in this thread is that a School Board, that's also broke, refuses to take part in any cost cutting measures. Yet a Contractors Union has a sole sourced contract that says they do everything in the school. Even putting in a pencil sharpener or screwing in a light bulb. That's not public money well spent. Why do they even have a Janitor if he can't do anything? The province will need to take control of this board and they'll be forced to make cuts that may not be appealing, but it's the board's own fault. Edited December 6, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 That's not what the issue is here. Regarding teachers, they are fairly compensated for what they do. But they're throwing a public temper tantrum now because the Province, which is broke, want to pair back some of their bennies. In 2008/9 when many people were being asked to take Furlough's the teacher's got double digit raises. if the government decide to claw back you benefits you'd complain as well, we all would...The issue in this thread is that a School Board, that's also broke, refuses to take part in any cost cutting measures. Yet a Contractors Union has a sole sourced contract that says they do everything in the school. Even putting in a pencil sharpener or screwing in a light bulb. That's not public money well spent. Why do they even have a Janitor if he can't do anything? janitors clean they are not maintenance workers they're certainly aren't electricians, plumbers, carpenters...the janitorial staff where mrs wyly works are mostly immigrants low or no skill workers with no clue how to do anything but mop a floor or empty a trash bin but you expect them to be able to do electrical work? work with power tools they don't have?...changing a light bulb, yes even light bulbs can require special tools to remove or the knowledge to do it they are not all simple screw in procedures, tools a janitor won't have, or extension ladders, scaffolding if needed...you hear "light bulb replacement" and think of a table lamp or residential ceiling fixture...I hear "light bulb replacement/school" and think 30ft ceiling/gym/scaffolding tools to unlock fixture set up time, knock down time etc...the details are missing, without them you can't make an accurate comment on price... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 if the government decide to claw back you benefits you'd complain as well, we all would... janitors clean they are not maintenance workers they're certainly aren't electricians, plumbers, carpenters...the janitorial staff where mrs wyly works are mostly immigrants low or no skill workers with no clue how to do anything but mop a floor or empty a trash bin but you expect them to be able to do electrical work? work with power tools they don't have?...changing a light bulb, yes even light bulbs can require special tools to remove or the knowledge to do it they are not all simple screw in procedures, tools a janitor won't have, or extension ladders, scaffolding if needed... you hear "light bulb replacement" and think of a table lamp or residential ceiling fixture...I hear "light bulb replacement/school" and think 30ft ceiling/gym/scaffolding tools to unlock fixture set up time, knock down time etc...the details are missing, without them you can't make an accurate comment on price... My Janitor did that in grade-school and high-school... Now im sure hes not allowed to touch that pencil sharpener until the Union has been contacted... Shame on the Unions.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 It would save a lot of money to have a handyman onsite that could do a variety of stuff. That's what the Janitor used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 you hear "light bulb replacement" and think of a table lamp or residential ceiling fixture...I hear "light bulb replacement/school" and think 30ft ceiling/gym/scaffolding tools to unlock fixture set up time, knock down time etc...the details are missing, without them you can't make an accurate comment on price... Walmart doesn't replace their own light bulbs, for that reason. They hire someone to do it. Now, if someone's gonna say that this is because of unions...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 aware it's an issue or that there are concerns about price/value....unless you know the entire story more than a dollar figure and a very vague job descriptions your dealing with perception/sticker shock... .it's just like our discussions on healthcare, people on the outside have a perception of what's going on but in reality have very little idea of how things work...and another common theme, everyone believes their work is more valuable than everyone else "I went to uni so deserve more than that guy who only went to a technical college"...I the appreciate the work teachers do I have good idea of what's involved and I don't question their knowledge and wages while many on this forum think they do nothing to earn their money...contractors/tradespeople have the same issues, people on the outside know little or nothing how things are done and come up with all kinds of erroneous perceptions of things are done and should be done... There are lots of examples of teachers complaining about this... anecdotal I admit but I do believe that abuses and inefficiencies occur and I don't think that the TDSB is equipped to manage this properly. Let me ask you: at what point would you start to suspect that the workers were simply not providing enough value for the money, and what would you suggest be done in response ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Walmart doesn't replace their own light bulbs, for that reason. They hire someone to do it. Now, if someone's gonna say that this is because of unions...... I bet Wal Mart isn't forced by a Union to only use one contractor regardless of price though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I bet Wal Mart isn't forced by a Union to only use one contractor regardless of price though. Of course not. But the point is this: if a company with the resources of Walmart finds it more expedient to go out of store for this kind of maintenance, then why would you expect it to be in-house for schools? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 It would save a lot of money to have a handyman onsite that could do a variety of stuff. That's what the Janitor used to be. not anymore, janitorial duties are low skill jobs, no tools other than cleaning tools provided...contractors supply their own tools, a typical contractor can have thousands of dollars of specialized tools if not tens of thousands, it isn't feasible to supply that to every school... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Of course not. But the point is this: if a company with the resources of Walmart finds it more expedient to go out of store for this kind of maintenance, then why would you expect it to be in-house for schools? For certain services I wouldn't. But there's a culture at play here where ANYTHING you do involving maintenance is against the rules and has to be left to this Union. I'm sure Wal-Mart wouldn't have to wait 7 days for defective smoke-alarms to be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 not anymore, janitorial duties are low skill jobs, no tools other than cleaning tools provided...contractors supply their own tools, a typical contractor can have thousands of dollars of specialized tools if not tens of thousands, it isn't feasible to supply that to every school... They sure don't get paid like low-skilled labour. Janitors do quite well in the public school system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Walmart doesn't replace their own light bulbs, for that reason. They hire someone to do it. Now, if someone's gonna say that this is because of unions...... exactly, I once put in a bid to change all the lights in a large grocery store, typical 25-30 foot ceilings, it would have required a two man crew with scaffolding installing florescent tubes that are like deadly spears should you drop one, they cut through flesh like a hot knife through butter ...and you don't just change burnt out bulbs you change every single one working or not, setting up a second time is more expensive than just replacing all the bulbs...I offered to do it for $35 per hour per man , a deal I thought electricians here would charge $85 per hour... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I'm still wondering if there is such a thing as overpriced labour ? I think if those on the left want to make sure our society works, they above all have to come forward to solutions to such problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 It would save a lot of money to have a handyman onsite that could do a variety of stuff. That's what the Janitor used to be. so you pay to have a handyman on site of every school? 50-70K per year( depending on where you live )just so you have someone to change a bulb or attach a pencil sharpener?...it's cheaper to contract it out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 They sure don't get paid like low-skilled labour. Janitors do quite well in the public school system. but now you're claiming some people aren't worth a living wage...those people live in the same city as you do, they have the same food costs, transportation costs, housing, taxes, they have all the same basic expenses that you do...do you expect them to get their meals from food banks and live in tents ?...people are entitled to a living wage, if you don't supply at least that you won't have anyone to do the work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 exactly, I once put in a bid to change all the lights in a large grocery store, typical 25-30 foot ceilings, it would have required a two man crew with scaffolding installing florescent tubes that are like deadly spears should you drop one, they cut through flesh like a hot knife through butter ...and you don't just change burnt out bulbs you change every single one working or not, setting up a second time is more expensive than just replacing all the bulbs...I offered to do it for $35 per hour per man , a deal I thought electricians here would charge $85 per hour... So based on an $85/hour charge for $2,600 at the end, they must have been changing light bulbs for at least 2 days. They also charged $300 extra for bulbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I'm still wondering if there is such a thing as overpriced labour ? I think if those on the left want to make sure our society works, they above all have to come forward to solutions to such problems. Not a bad point; if one remains on the defensive all the time, the question "then what?" isn't a terrible one. But part of the problem is that there's no objective way to measure it. Not really. to say "let the market decide" is a poor answer, because usually by "the market" people mean (whether they know it or not) actual decisions made by human beings, not based on any objective criteria. So in a sense, the warring factions are rather in the same boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 but now you're claiming some people aren't worth a living wage...those people live in the same city as you do, they have the same food costs, transportation costs, housing, taxes, they have all the same basic expenses that you do...do you expect them to get their meals from food banks and live in tents ?...people are entitled to a living wage, if you don't supply at least that you won't have anyone to do the work... Not all low-skilled labour pays a living wage . . . except in the public sector where the taxpayer foots the bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I'm still wondering if there is such a thing as overpriced labour ? I think if those on the left want to make sure our society works, they above all have to come forward to solutions to such problems. nope, labour price is whatever the market will bear, if it's to much they won't have any work, if it's too little you won't find anyone qualified to do the work.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 nope, labour price is whatever the market will bear, if it's to much they won't have any work, if it's too little you won't find anyone qualified to do the work.. Not in this instance. The Board HAS TO PAY whatever the Union charges. Which is the outrage of the situation since the Board is broke. You keep talk about being competitive. There's nothing competitive about what's going on in the TDSB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 So based on an $85/hour charge for $2,600 at the end, they must have been changing light bulbs for at least 2 days. They also charged $300 extra for bulbs. $300 bulbs-mark up for materials is normal for any business...$10 of plumbing parts from Rona will cost you $50 when the plumber supplies them, they need to pay for carrying costs and pick-up delivery of those parts + profit...and as I posted earlier you don't know what is involved in changing bulbs from a simple line of price + job description...I wouldn't make any judgement there isn't enough info to do so... Not a bad point; if one remains on the defensive all the time, the question "then what?" isn't a terrible one. But part of the problem is that there's no objective way to measure it. Not really. to say "let the market decide" is a poor answer, because usually by "the market" people mean (whether they know it or not) actual decisions made by human beings, not based on any objective criteria. So in a sense, the warring factions are rather in the same boat. the market does decide, I hire plumbers often, those who I think I'm stupid and give me estimates of $450 per hour don't get my business, so they obviously sit at home more than those who give industry/market rates...there is perception that all contractors are successful but many fail because they are out to lunch when it comes to pricing...charge too much and they don't work go bankrupt, charge too little and they lose money and go bankrupt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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